southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 01:06 PM) Optimizing revenues based on expected attendance, not on possible attendance. Big distinction there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I still don't understand what is hard to understand on here. We have a high dollar payroll and it is hard to take it from high dollar to top dollar without having a lot of people at the games. Kenny isn't b****ing that we are poor, he's saying that if you want to come to him and b**** about how we haven't brought in any additional big dollar players (or why we didn't resign a player like Mark Buehrle), look at the attendance numbers. Of course in this is an implicit admission that he could have spent the current dollars better. But hey, you live and you learn. Had we just developed one more MLBish 3B or another starting pitcher (or just avoided injury/fantastic failure at this position) this team is almost without flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 10:39 AM) I'm beginning to think the White Sox actually don't mind this attendance and media talk. It makes people overlook revenue and concentrate on weak ticket sales. If they are pricing tickets at the level they are pricing them, they must be hard to get. Isn't that how supply and demand works? You're overlooking elasticity. Some people are willing to pay any price (within reason) to go to Sox games. If you lower ticket prices in an effort to get more people into the park, then you forego the potential revenues from people who would have been willing to pay more for the same tickets. This trade-off is going to be factored into the ticket pricing model. While it's surprising the Sox keep their prices so high, they obviously know their customers better than we do and have years of financial data to develop their pricing models. I trust that the Sox are making all their pricing decisions with a goal of optimizing profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 12:35 PM) Right on cue, the nice and lazy media playing the meatball contingent like a fiddle. I resent being called a meatball. I happen to think it was the column of the year. Cost of going to games is a major problem now and if the economy doesn't improve, forever. Sox should just sell all tickets to corporations in the offseason and have 30,000 no shows a night. Tell the corps the team will move without the ticket sales. Because TONS of Sox fans can't afford to go to games, and after a while, will get used to the fact they can't go to games, and just enjoy watching the games on TV with cheap beer and snacks at their disposal the rest of their lives. But I'm a meatball?? This is a lifestyle thing and a lot of fans will get used to simply not having a Sox game as an option for family fun anymore. Sell all the tickets to corporations and let them resell them or burn them. QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 01:11 PM) Sox fans are educated; you should give them a little more credit. They won't support a half-assed rebuild, no. But, if the team had a defined direction with a quality farm system to support it, I think you would be surprised at the attendance. Fans want to hope for the future. They will support something if they can envision a better future for the organization. Look at our minor league system now, and show me where the hope is. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 03:15 PM) I'd love to come up with something new to talk about, but come on. No one questions Kenny or JR? Really? If no one questions them, why the hell are we on like post #200 of this dead horse topic? The entire fanbase knew attendance was going to fall hard this year, yet here we are acting like this is a surprise? Come on. No way in hell fans will go to games to watch prospects lose games at the Cell. I mean lets say we have Mitchell in the outfield and he's hitting .180 after April. Nobody would give a f*** about going to the Cell to watch Mitchell. Ditto Sale if he was 1-5 with a 6.33 ERA after six starts. It's about winning. Sox fans would never support 90-100 loss teams IMO. Edited June 21, 2012 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) <!--quoteo(post=2628859:date=Jun 21, 2012 -> 10:39 AM:name=Dick Allen)-->QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 10:39 AM) <!--quotec-->I'm beginning to think the White Sox actually don't mind this attendance and media talk. It makes people overlook revenue and concentrate on weak ticket sales. If they are pricing tickets at the level they are pricing them, they must be hard to get. Isn't that how supply and demand works? You're overlooking elasticity. Some people are willing to pay any price (within reason) to go to Sox games. If you lower ticket prices in an effort to get more people into the park, then you forego the potential revenues from people who would have been willing to pay more for the same tickets. This trade-off is going to be factored into the ticket pricing model. While it's surprising the Sox keep their prices so high, they obviously know their customers better than we do and have years of financial data to develop their pricing models. I trust that the Sox are making all their pricing decisions with a goal of optimizing profit. No, I understand that, but with this Cubs series, most tickets were sold to season ticketholders, or the people who received ticket plans that aren't considered season ticketholders, and people who bought tickets right away. The pricepoints were nowhere near what they were on ticketmaster the past several weeks. Pricing them ridiculously left those seats empty. I would really love to see an actual comparison from year to year on walk up sales from before they were dynamic, until now. What the Sox are hoping is the people who thought tickets for that game or others were too expensive will buy them in February next year to "get a deal". Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. If it doesn't, I bet bleacher seats against the Cubs won't be $90 next year.If they are optimizing profit, why doesn't KW just say we are doing fine when asked about money available to add payroll. There is no way they really expect a regular guy with a family to spend $90 a ticket to sit in the bleachers do they? The other problem is the person willing to pay $90 a ticket probably isn't a bleacher guy. Edited June 21, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) No, I understand that, but with this Cubs series, most tickets were sold to season ticketholders, or the people who received ticket plans that aren't considered season ticketholders, and people who bought tickets right away. The pricepoints were nowhere near what they were on ticketmaster the past several weeks. Pricing them ridiculously left those seats empty. I would really love to see an actual comparison from year to year on walk up sales from before they were dynamic, until now. What the Sox are hoping is the people who thought tickets for that game or others were too expensive will buy them in February next year to "get a deal". Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. If it doesn't, I bet bleacher seats against the Cubs won't be $90 next year.If they are optimizing profit, why doesn't KW just say we are doing fine when asked about money available to add payroll. There is no way they really expect a regular guy with a family to spend $90 a ticket to sit in the bleachers do they? The other problem is the person willing to pay $90 a ticket probably isn't a bleacher guy. The problem is if they cut the prices at the last minute, what is the incentive to pay even season ticketholder prices, which you claim almost everyone there did? Just wait until the last minute and get the most expensive series of the year cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) The problem is if they cut the prices at the last minute, what is the incentive to pay even season ticketholder prices, which you claim almost everyone there did? Just wait until the last minute and get the most expensive series of the year cheaper. I understand that, but raising them 50% isn't the answer. Buying early should be rewarded. Season ticketholders should pay the lowest price. The pick 7 people, I can see if there are tickets available to sell, sell them at the price they paid if you can't get more. Wasn't the pricing using the Dynamic model supposed to fluctuate based on all sorts of factors? If the Sox insist on charging what they were charging for those games its a sign they had no problem no one wound up sitting in those seats. Its not on White Sox fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) I understand that, but raising them 50% isn't the answer. Buying early should be rewarded. Season ticketholders should pay the lowest price. The pick 7 people, I can see if there are tickets available to sell, sell them at the price they paid if you can't get more. Wasn't the pricing using the Dynamic model supposed to fluctuate based on all sorts of factors? If the Sox insist on charging what they were charging for those games its a sign they had no problem no one wound up sitting in those seats. Its not on White Sox fans. Outside of the Cubs series...are the tickets usually $90 for bleacher seats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:41 PM) Outside of the Cubs series...are the tickets usually $90 for bleacher seats? No. I did some checking, they are $45 against the Twins Wednesday afternoon July 25th. It was $33 plus fees for an upper deck box, not even premium. I think that still is a bit steep, but that's just me. I don't think my premium clubs were that much for most games. Last homestand it was at least $50 for at least one of the series. They are $55 against the Yankees in August with a lot of availability. The Sox "save of the week" was $38 plus fees for Mullett Night for the bleachers. Why is it 63% more expensive to see the Sox play the Cubs than the Sox play the Yankees? Edited June 21, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I don't even like the Angels, but I love Arte Moreno. While the Dodgers are the long-reigning champions of the Southland's popularity contest, Moreno made the Angels competitive: he putting a quality product on the field, created a family-friendly experience and charged a reasonable price. He lowered the price of beer and kept parking at $10 (I don't know what it costs this season, but it was only $10 for years). While the Angels don't have capacity crowds every night, they have good-sized crowds and tickets are relatively easy to come by, and they don't cost an arm and a leg. In the past decade the Angels have won a World Series, made the playoffs six times, and five AL West titles. They're always aggressive in the free agent market—they don't always get their man, but they're almost always in the debate. I've never heard Arte Moreno or any Angel management make the same excuses the White Sox do. If this article is how Reinsdorf and his mouthpiece in Kenny Williams feel about Sox fans—they will build it if the fans come—it's high time for us to call for a new owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxfan09 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 "I don't want to expound because then I get buried because I'm crying about money and things," Williams said prior to Monday's home game with the Chicago Cubs. "I don't want to do it, but yes (it's still an issue.)" I think KW should check out Soxtalk to get a pretty widespread and good idea of what fans think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (SpainSOXfan09 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 03:35 PM) "I don't want to expound because then I get buried because I'm crying about money and things," Williams said prior to Monday's home game with the Chicago Cubs. "I don't want to do it, but yes (it's still an issue.)" I think KW should check out Soxtalk to get a pretty widespread and good idea of what fans think. I don't know what that quote has to do with your sentence that followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Drew @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 03:15 PM) I don't even like the Angels, but I love Arte Moreno. While the Dodgers are the long-reigning champions of the Southland's popularity contest, Moreno made the Angels competitive: he putting a quality product on the field, created a family-friendly experience and charged a reasonable price. He lowered the price of beer and kept parking at $10 (I don't know what it costs this season, but it was only $10 for years). While the Angels don't have capacity crowds every night, they have good-sized crowds and tickets are relatively easy to come by, and they don't cost an arm and a leg. In the past decade the Angels have won a World Series, made the playoffs six times, and five AL West titles. They're always aggressive in the free agent market—they don't always get their man, but they're almost always in the debate. I've never heard Arte Moreno or any Angel management make the same excuses the White Sox do. If this article is how Reinsdorf and his mouthpiece in Kenny Williams feel about Sox fans—they will build it if the fans come—it's high time for us to call for a new owner. While I agree that the ticket price structure needs to be revisited, it's quite ridiculous for you to think that we need to call for a new owner considering they just disproved your assumption that the Sox require fans to come out to the park before spending by having a $125mm payroll last year with only 25k fans showing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxfan09 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 I don't know what that quote has to do with your sentence that followed. Well he said he would get blasted and he has by some fans but there has also been good debate about the way he has managed his resources. Just sayin there has been good debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) No, I understand that, but with this Cubs series, most tickets were sold to season ticketholders, or the people who received ticket plans that aren't considered season ticketholders, and people who bought tickets right away. The pricepoints were nowhere near what they were on ticketmaster the past several weeks. Pricing them ridiculously left those seats empty. I would really love to see an actual comparison from year to year on walk up sales from before they were dynamic, until now. What the Sox are hoping is the people who thought tickets for that game or others were too expensive will buy them in February next year to "get a deal". Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. If it doesn't, I bet bleacher seats against the Cubs won't be $90 next year.If they are optimizing profit, why doesn't KW just say we are doing fine when asked about money available to add payroll. There is no way they really expect a regular guy with a family to spend $90 a ticket to sit in the bleachers do they? The other problem is the person willing to pay $90 a ticket probably isn't a bleacher guy. I'm not saying the White Sox are currently optimizing profit with their pricing decisions, but that's clearly the goal of the dynamic pricing model. There are obviously going to be some kinks along the way, especially early on. The Cubs/Sox series is probably a great example, as I'm assuming the pricing model overestimated demand for the series. Honestly, the overall interest for the series this year was at an all-time low. A model is going to struggle to predict that if it's using historical data of any kind. I'm sure the Sox will find ways to avoid most of these types of issues in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 It's really pretty simple: the Sox seemingly lack the resources to make a big in-season acquisition. They don't have a strong enough farm system to trade prospects to another team and have that team pick up most of the player's remaining salary (ie: Casey Blake for Carlos Santana). Thus, they need to be able to have the available payroll to bring in someone with 6-8 million remaining on their contract this year, and the attendance-to-date is making that difficult. After a few days to think about Kenny's comments, I have no problem with him calling out the fan base. Yes, the prices are too high, and you can tell they're in panic mode to try and fix some of the pricing issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 01:34 PM) I understand that, but raising them 50% isn't the answer. Buying early should be rewarded. Season ticketholders should pay the lowest price. The pick 7 people, I can see if there are tickets available to sell, sell them at the price they paid if you can't get more. Wasn't the pricing using the Dynamic model supposed to fluctuate based on all sorts of factors? If the Sox insist on charging what they were charging for those games its a sign they had no problem no one wound up sitting in those seats. Its not on White Sox fans. Yes, I believe that in theory the season ticket holders should get lower prices, but that's not the only incentive. Besides the larger choice of seats, parking, 1st chance at playoff seats, etc, they also get a hedge in the market. While that doesn't mean much this season (and most recent Sox seasons for that matter), in a year where the Sox are really good and tickets are hard to come by and more expensive, they have their reserved seat at a fixed, lower price. Unfortunately this year the Sox are not world beaters, coupled with the economy, so the market should mean lower prices. It's kind of like playing the stock market. I know that this is not a total answer, but there is some incentive other than price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (klaus kinski @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 11:44 AM) Discount seats-pricing gimmicks-it may be as simple as free or $5.00 parking or reduced concession prices. When I went earkier this year, I was surprised by not that food prices were up, but how much. Maybe sell "taste portions" for smaller amount. It is a difficult place to bring a family by public transportation-and who wants to take a bus or train back to a car at night anywhere in the dark. Make it an affordable and pleasant trip, and the seat price issue becomes less of a reason not to go. lil tip: the kid's concession stand/ice cream stand in the 500 level has a "kids' hot dog" for $1.50. it's the exact same dog sold in the other stands. also, the bertucci's have a "secret" stand by the patio area(accessible from gate 2). most of the food there is cheaper than the sportservice menu. and a lil more varied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) No, I understand that, but with this Cubs series, most tickets were sold to season ticketholders, or the people who received ticket plans that aren't considered season ticketholders, and people who bought tickets right away. The pricepoints were nowhere near what they were on ticketmaster the past several weeks. Pricing them ridiculously left those seats empty. I would really love to see an actual comparison from year to year on walk up sales from before they were dynamic, until now. What the Sox are hoping is the people who thought tickets for that game or others were too expensive will buy them in February next year to "get a deal". Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. If it doesn't, I bet bleacher seats against the Cubs won't be $90 next year.If they are optimizing profit, why doesn't KW just say we are doing fine when asked about money available to add payroll. There is no way they really expect a regular guy with a family to spend $90 a ticket to sit in the bleachers do they? The other problem is the person willing to pay $90 a ticket probably isn't a bleacher guy. this series is sold to a lot of group customers. but two years of weekday games made me buy just one single ticket, instead of my 20 a game, plus the additional groups they make me buy to get cubs/sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 04:45 PM) It's really pretty simple: the Sox seemingly lack the resources to make a big in-season acquisition. They don't have a strong enough farm system to trade prospects to another team and have that team pick up most of the player's remaining salary (ie: Casey Blake for Carlos Santana). Thus, they need to be able to have the available payroll to bring in someone with 6-8 million remaining on their contract this year, and the attendance-to-date is making that difficult. After a few days to think about Kenny's comments, I have no problem with him calling out the fan base. Yes, the prices are too high, and you can tell they're in panic mode to try and fix some of the pricing issues. How many guys are on the trade block that the White Sox have the desire to trade for, the prospects to trade for, but can't afford? That list is real short if it exists at all. KW talking out of his a** again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 03:41 PM) I don't know what that quote has to do with your sentence that followed. My thoughts exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Isn't it a little strange KW rmentioned the attendance perhaps hurting his ability to add to the current roster only days after Peter Gammons reported the Sox offered Soler $25-30 million? Either Gammons is lying or KW is lying about being strapped for cash. Edited June 22, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:04 PM) Isn't it a little strange KW rmentioned the attendance perhaps hurting his ability to add to the current roster only days after Peter Gammons reported the Sox offered Soler $25-30 million? Either Gammons is lying or KW is lying about being strapped for cash. No offense, but why does it bother you so much? Part of his job is creating misdirection. If he always came out telling the truth, he would never have any leverage in negotiations and would be giving his competition unnecessary information. I don't see how him telling the press he has a $25 million rainy day fund just lying around would do any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:37 PM) No offense, but why does it bother you so much? Part of his job is creating misdirection. If he always came out telling the truth, he would never have any leverage in negotiations and would be giving his competition unnecessary information. I don't see how him telling the press he has a $25 million rainy day fund just lying around would do any good. Of course it doesn't, but find a different target than your fanbase or don't say anything at all. I just have a hard time with the perception that the White Sox don't get the support they deserve. They charge a lot of money to go to their games. One of the most expensive tickets in baseball before we get into dynamic pricing. Their performance hasn't been top 5 in baseball very often even though that is what they charge. I just wish they would stop finding a way to mention their lack of funds, and sort of ,kind of ,pointing their collective fingers at the fanbase. The reality is, the more money KW has spent in recent years, the worse the team seems to have performed. Maybe that is something he should point out when the press hounds him about finances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:11 PM) Of course it doesn't, but find a different target than your fanbase or don't say anything at all. I just have a hard time with the perception that the White Sox don't get the support they deserve. They charge a lot of money to go to their games. One of the most expensive tickets in baseball before we get into dynamic pricing. Their performance hasn't been top 5 in baseball very often even though that is what they charge. I just wish they would stop finding a way to mention their lack of funds, and sort of ,kind of ,pointing their collective fingers at the fanbase. The reality is, the more money KW has spent in recent years, the worse the team seems to have performed. Maybe that is something he should point out when the press hounds him about finances. I just don't understand how you could be a CPA and not see the different budgets that are in play here. I am sure each area has a budget and they try to stay within those budgets. Signing Soler would probably come out of a different budget than the one intended for making in-season acquisitions. I know our Organization gets creative with money, and will pull from one area to another and vice versa, but I am not sure what you would have them do. Signing Soler is probably based on payrolls in the future and not necessarily money they have right now from which to draw against. How could you possibly not get your mind around that as an accountant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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