KW whining about (OK bringing up) attendance again

[Baron]

There certainly is. I'll give you a hint, despite the continued assertions that "I always do" this and that.

 

I'll give you a hint: All you have to do is look at the payroll versus attendance and the performance of the team over the course of that last 7 years and you can see all the evidence you need.

 

So no evidence. All your doing is guessing. Glad we got that cleared up.

[iamshack]

My argument all along tonight has been if they have money for Soler, they have money to add to this year's roster, and I don't like KW using Sox fans as a pawn when asked about finances. He can cry poor all he wants, a lot of teams do, but don't imply it has anything to do with attendance. He really tried not to, I'll give him that, but in the end, he said it was a factor.

It IS a factor.

 

And he is not using the Sox fans as a pawn. Please explain how he is using them as a pawn.

 

Regardless of what your argument all along has been, that certainly does not make it my argument all along. We have been raising many different points on this same topic for probably 6 years now and the crux hasn't changed. You demand the Club spend every penny they can possibly scrape up in any scenario, or else they are not entitled to mention attendance as a factor in making future acquisitions. I claim that is a ridiculous assertion.

[Dick Allen]

There certainly is. I'll give you a hint, despite the continued assertions that "I always do" this and that.

 

I'll give you a hint: All you have to do is look at the payroll versus attendance and the performance of the team over the course of that last 7 years and you can see all the evidence you need.

Payroll is down 24 percent from last season. Attendance is down 9%. I guess your evidence would show funds are available.

[iamshack]

So no evidence. All your doing is guessing. Glad we got that cleared up.

We are all speculating, absolutely. I certainly can not claim to have access to the White Sox financial records.

 

But I am tying my argument to publicly-released figures regarding payroll and attendance, and tying them to our roster moves and acquisitions to try and fill in the gaps.

 

You are going off of vague rumors by Peter Gammons.

 

 

[iamshack]

Payroll is down 24 percent from last season. Attendance is down 9%. I guess your evidence would show funds are available.

No, my evidence would show that they are trying to recoup funds from last year by slashing this year's operating budget.

 

It is a widely undertaken measure in the business world, DA.

[Baron]

 

 

 

We are all speculating, absolutely. I certainly can not claim to have access to the White Sox financial records.

 

But I am tying my argument to publicly-released figures regarding payroll and attendance, and tying them to our roster moves and acquisitions to try and fill in the gaps.

 

You are going off of vague rumors by Peter Gammons.

 

It wasnt a rumor. He said we bid. Plain and simple. Its right there in black and white. Peter Gammons is 100 times more reputable than you are and actually has sources throughout teams in baseball.

 

Yes we know you have no sources throughout the White Sox. That much was very clear from the start.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Baron

[iamshack]

It wasnt a rumor. He said we bid. Plain and simple. Its right there in black and white. Peter Gammons is 100 times more reputable than you are and actually has sources throughout teams in baseball.

 

Yes we know you have no sources throughout the White Sox. That much was very clear from the start.

Baron, are you claiming that if someone says something, it cannot be a rumor, because that person said it was true?

 

Secondly, the argument is not whether Peter Gammons has better sources or I do. The argument, if there actually is one, is which is a better source, actual publicly-released documents regarding player salaries, attendance, etc., or Peter Gammons hearing from his sources that we made a bid on Jorge Soler. Notwithstanding that even if it was established that we did bid on him, that doesn't establish the value of that bid.

 

Oh, and I actually do know a guy that has pretty good sources within the White Sox...but no, I have no direct sources, nor did I claim I did.

Edited June 22, 2012 by iamshack

[Dick Allen]

It IS a factor.

 

And he is not using the Sox fans as a pawn. Please explain how he is using them as a pawn.

 

Regardless of what your argument all along has been, that certainly does not make it my argument all along. We have been raising many different points on this same topic for probably 6 years now and the crux hasn't changed. You demand the Club spend every penny they can possibly scrape up in any scenario, or else they are not entitled to mention attendance as a factor in making future acquisitions. I claim that is a ridiculous assertion.

Again, I have never demanded they spend every penny. They have claimed numerous times they spend every dime that comes in. JR finally came clean when he was questioned about where they got the money for Dunn, Konerko and AJ when he said they save a little here, save a little there. I would imagine Forbes numbers are a lot more accurate than the claims White Sox employees make concerning finances, and Forbes calls them, despite Sox fans apparently not supporting the team, one of the most profitable franchises in baseball. I've only called them cheap in 2009 when they had all my non refundable playoff money, raised ticket prices, and then lowered payroll and cried poor. They eventually brought in Peavy and Rios. Other than that, I've never really had a problem with their payroll. In fact, I actually argued against the $4 million for 1 month waste of money for Manny Ramirez. I only have a problem with them crying poor if they are not, and claiming to spend every dime that comes in, when they don't. I don't know know why they feel its so important to tell everyone these things.

[LittleHurt05]

 

[Dick Allen]

No, my evidence would show that they are trying to recoup funds from last year by slashing this year's operating budget.

 

It is a widely undertaken measure in the business world, DA.

What was their bottom line last year? Forbes claims they made $10 million. What did you come up with?

[iamshack]

Again, I have never demanded they spend every penny. They have claimed numerous times they spend every dime that comes in. JR finally came clean when he was questioned about where they got the money for Dunn, Konerko and AJ when he said they save a little here, save a little there. I would imagine Forbes numbers are a lot more accurate than the claims White Sox employees make concerning finances, and Forbes calls them, despite Sox fans apparently not supporting the team, one of the most profitable franchises in baseball. I've only called them cheap in 2009 when they had all my non refundable playoff money, raised ticket prices, and then lowered payroll and cried poor. They eventually brought in Peavy and Rios. Other than that, I've never really had a problem with their payroll. In fact, I actually argued against the $4 million for 1 month waste of money for Manny Ramirez. I only have a problem with them crying poor if they are not, and claiming to spend every dime that comes in, when they don't. I don't know know why they feel its so important to tell everyone these things.

I think they do so just to piss you off, DA.

 

To run the franchise as you would suggest would be reckless, irresponsible, and lead to the White Sox being buried with unmovable contracts every year. You criticize the acquisitions of Peavy/Rios/Dunn enough. To follow the standards you seem to want to hold them to would lead to even more of those type of contracts.

[Baron]

Baron, are you claiming that if someone says something, it cannot be a rumor, because that person said it was true?

 

Secondly, the argument is not whether Peter Gammons has better sources or I do. The argument, if there actually is one, is which is a better source, actual publicly-released documents regarding player salaries, attendance, etc., or Peter Gammons hearing from his sources that we made a bid on Jorge Soler. Notwithstanding that even if it was established that we did bid on him, that doesn't establish the value of that bid.

 

Oh, and I actually do know a guy that has pretty good sources within the White Sox...but no, I have no direct sources, nor did I claim I did.

 

I am absolutely not claiming that.

 

What I am claiming is that I trust his sources(This is coming from someone involved in the game of baseball almost his entire life) which said we bid on Soler and that bid was 25-30 million. Over your analyzation of documents and not having a full understanding of the details. Its pretty simple.

 

I dont care if you have a friend connected with the White Sox. Give yourself a pat on the back.

 

 

[iamshack]

What was their bottom line last year? Forbes claims they made $10 million. What did you come up with?

I think I stated about 100 posts ago that I think it is reasonable that the investors make some money. That is the purpose of investing.

The amount of money that goes in and out of a professional baseball organization every year is in the hundreds of millions if not billions. To claim that $10 million is some kind of significant figure is just not true. That is a tiny sliver in the grand scheme of things.

[Dick Allen]

I think they do so just to piss you off, DA.

 

To run the franchise as you would suggest would be reckless, irresponsible, and lead to the White Sox being buried with unmovable contracts every year. You criticize the acquisitions of Peavy/Rios/Dunn enough. To follow the standards you seem to want to hold them to would lead to even more of those type of contracts.

Actually I always loved the Peavy trade. Maybe you can find evidence I criticized the acquistion. Rios was a stupid acquistion. Dunn was an overpay because of the Thome/Kotsay fiasco. I would not have these obligations on the books if I ran the franchise. I don't know how that could be considered reckless. But keep going. Its funny you say I'm against the acquistions of the White Sox immoveable contracts, and then say running the team the way I suggest would lead to more immoveable contracts.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

I am absolutely not claiming that.

 

What I am claiming is that I trust his sources(This is coming from someone involved in the game of baseball almost his entire life) which said we bid on Soler and that bid was 25-30 million. Over your analyzation of documents and not having a full understanding of the details. Its pretty simple.

 

I dont care if you have a friend connected with the White Sox. Give yourself a pat on the back.

But you did claim that, Baron. You posted that it was not a rumor because he said it was true.

 

Even if I did trust Peter Gammons as much as you, I certainly didn't read his statement to say we bid $25-30 million. But perhaps you can make it more clear to me.

[iamshack]

Actually I always loved the Peavy trade. Maybe you can find evidence I criticized the acquistion. Rios was a stupid acquistion. Dunn was an overpay because of the Thome/Kotsay fiasco. I would not have these obligations on the books if I ran the franchise. I don't know how that could be considered reckless. But keep going.

You seem to espouse the theory that one must spend every dollar one has access to, or saying they have no money to spend is an inaccurate statement. You seem to espouse the theory that JR should exhaust every financial resource he has or else he is not putting all the money back into the team.

 

Such behavior would indeed be very reckless.

[Baron]

But you did claim that, Baron. You posted that it was not a rumor because he said it was true.

 

Even if I did trust Peter Gammons as much as you, I certainly didn't read his statement to say we bid $25-30 million. But perhaps you can make it more clear to me.

 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/jorge-soler/

 

Pretty easy find

 

I know you may have trouble with this. But normally when people try to distinguish fact from a rumor they usually say so.

 

[Baron]

You seem to espouse the theory that one must spend every dollar one has access to, or saying they have no money to spend is an inaccurate statement. You seem to espouse the theory that JR should exhaust every financial resource he has or else he is not putting all the money back into the team.

 

Such behavior would indeed be very reckless.

 

He hasnt been saying that at all. Stop trying to put words in his mouth to make your argument.

[iamshack]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/jorge-soler/

 

Pretty easy find

 

I know you may have trouble with this. But normally when people try to distinguish fact from a rumor they usually say so.

Ahh, this is why I asked for you to make it more clear to me! He does claim that we actually bid $25 million. My bad.

 

But you do understand that this does not make it a fact that we did so, right? Just because Peter Gammons said so doesn't make it fact? Still a rumor.

 

ru·mor: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

[iamshack]

He hasnt been saying that at all. Stop trying to put words in his mouth to make your argument.

Actually, he has been saying this for years, Baron. Ask the people who joined Soxtalk before 2011.

[Baron]

Ahh, this is why I asked for you to make it more clear to me! He does claim that we actually bid $25 million. My bad.

 

But you do understand that this does not make it a fact that we did so, right? Just because Peter Gammons said so doesn't make it fact? Still a rumor.

 

ru·mor: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth

 

So unless it comes out of Kenny's mouth we should just blow it off? Even then you may claim its still a rumor.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Baron

[Dick Allen]

When did I say they had to spend every dime? Give me evidence. I've only stated they claim they spend every dime. When I pointed out for years that really wasn't accurate, you argued with me about that. You say $10 million isn't a lot of money, that would indicate they should be able to acquire a pretty good player since they only have to pay him for half a year. Perhaps a $20 million a year guy.

 

Since you are so tuned into White Sox finances, how much are they looking to recoup from last season?

[iamshack]

So unless it comes out of Kenny's mouth we should just blow it off? Even then we may blow it off.

That's not what I am saying at all.

 

But wouldn't you agree that if you are really going to voice your strong opinions on a topic you at least have an obligation to consider all available known information if you wish to be taken seriously?

 

[Dick Allen]

Actually, he has been saying this for years, Baron. Ask the people who joined Soxtalk before 2011.

Using one of your lines, show me evidence. I'm going to bed. I'll be looking for the evidence tomorrow, and the evidence you were going to dig up for me today.

[Baron]

That's not what I am saying at all.

 

But wouldn't you agree that if you are really going to voice your strong opinions on a topic you at least have an obligation to consider all available known information if you wish to be taken seriously?

 

Im taken pretty seriously actually. More than you think.