KW whining about (OK bringing up) attendance again

[caulfield12]

Half of that were Brewers fans.

 

I generally dislike when front office complains about attendance, but KW has an argument.

We go to ~10 games every season, last night was my 3rd game so far, It's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things but its what I can do to help.

If there's fans here who haven't been to a game yet this season, do me a favor and cancel your soxtalk account and go to a game (you're going to have fun).

 

Yes Brewer fans are cordial, knowledgable and nice; but their cheering is the last thing I want to here when the Sox are down.

There were so many Brewer fans last night, you could here booing when the Sox got the benefit from a call.

That drives you crazy if you're out there supporting your home team.

 

 

Back to the same argument.

 

They shouldn't price tickets in a way that they're MUCH more attractive to fans in the Milwaukee area who maybe only come down to Chicago a few times per year...they can justify hotel rooms, paying $90-105 for tickets, because it's a series that now happens between the teams only a few times every decade, where the Brewers are playing on the SouthSide.

 

In other words, that's a unique experience for those particular fans, the whole Chicago/weekend trip experience in general, versus being just 1/81 games on a home schedule. The same phenomenon happened with Tigers' fans invading Wrigley not so long ago.

 

If the Brewers were a better team, if Fielder was still there, there would be a lot more interest on the part of most Sox fans.

 

 

[Drew]

While I agree that the ticket price structure needs to be revisited, it's quite ridiculous for you to think that we need to call for a new owner considering they just disproved your assumption that the Sox require fans to come out to the park before spending by having a $125mm payroll last year with only 25k fans showing up.

 

What is ridiculous is for any business owner to make a better product only if customers keep buying the overpriced product. The comparisons to Arte Moreno serves as an example that his investment in a quality product and charging a reasonable price for it is a proven recipe for success.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Drew

[caulfield12]

But now, events in the real world outside of the courtroom are on pace to blow those figures out of the water. And the Mariners could wind up topping that $800 million figure thrown around in regards to the Padres.

 

Photo Credit: AP

 

One thing that has to be understood throughout any attempt to place estimates on a team's value is the increasing demand for owners to renegotiate new regional sports network (RSN) television deals. The Mariners can opt out of their deal with ROOT Sports by 2015 and can actually begin new negotiations any day now -- if they haven't already -- because such contracts need to be finalized well ahead of their actual start dates.

 

Thus, the Mariners are sitting on a huge financial windfall. Industry sources have repeatedly suggested to me that the team's current deal is already more lucrative than the oft-reported 10-year, $450 million figure that's been tossed around for years. Network executives and team officials do their utmost to keep such figures secret, so there's no telling how much higher any new deal will go from what's already been reported. Three times more? Four times? We'll see.

 

But the one thing you got out of the Larson divorce case -- and which industry experts are pretty consistent about -- is that the Mariners are worth more than the Padres.

 

Mary Ann Travers of Crowe Horwath LLP, the appraisal expert hired by Larson, came in with the low-end figure at trial but still conceeded the Mariners were still worth somewhere between the $480 million the Padres sold for in 2009 and the $593 million fetched by the Texas Rangers in 2010.

 

Don Erickson, of Erickson Partners LLC, the franchise valuation expert hired by Calhoun, argued that the Mariners compared more favorably to the recent $610 million sale of the Houston Astros, as well as the $593 million Rangers sale. In other words, well above the Padres.

 

And King County Superior Court Judge William Downing agreed with Erickson, stating in his ruling that: "The Court has reviewed the details of transactions involving the Houston Astros, Texas Rangers, San Diego Padres, Chicago Cubs and Atlanta Braves. The Court would find the May 2011 Astros transaction and the December 2010 Rangers transaction to be the best comparables due to their recency, similar attendance and other factors. The Seattle Mariners' on-field performance probably slides in between the two but, from a business point of view, they enjoy a superior demographic."

 

So, no one is arguing that the Mariners were worth more than the Padres.

 

What's happened since?

 

The recently completed $2.15 billion sale of the Los Angeles Dodgers, for one. A deal in which the value of the team's upcoming TV deal played a huge role. The Dodgers' TV rights are up for renewal after 2013 and the new owners can potentially launch a new RSN of their own or leverage the value of it to drive their rights fees sky high.

 

This is a boom period for baseball franchises and the ones lucky enough to have TV deals up for renewal are those who will cash in while the getting is good.

 

The Padres sale is said to involve roughy a $600 million price tag for the team itself, plus an additional $200 million for an ownership stake in the team's new $1.2 billion TV deal with FOX.

 

Now, again, just because the Padres are getting this sale price doesn't automatically mean the Mariners will get more.

 

But in theory, as long as the Mariners don't mess things up, they should be able to get more in any pending sale if everything remains equal.

 

In other words, don't start racking up yearly deficits and continue to maintain the best debt load of any team in the majors. Keep shedding the salaries of pricey veterans like Ichiro this year, with Milton Bradley and Jack Wilson being dumped last year. Wait for Chone Figgins to run out next year.

 

Your attendance might drop in the interim as fans tire of seasons of 90+ losses.

 

But as long as the bottom line remains free of red ink -- and remember, the M's would have turned a profit last year had they not put in new scoreboards as a Safeco Field upgrade -- the M's look to be perfectly positioned to reap big money in any sale. Sure, the TV numbers are not as big as they could be if the M's were to say, contend for something. But it's not as if the Padres are doing anything big on the field, either. And their revenues are not very strong at the moment.

 

All things being equal, from what the experts have already said, the Mariners should be worth more than the Padres. And right now, the Padres are said to be worth $800 million.

 

That's a hefty increase -- in terms of sports franchise growth -- from the initial $100 million purchase price Hiroshi Yamauchi, Chris Larson and company, first paid for the Mariners back in 1992. Even when you factor in the additional $112 million that Larson testified the owners have had to shell out in addition to their initial costs.

 

Remember, this isn't a mutual fund. It's owning a sports team and all the tax breaks and prestige that comes with it. So, we don't calculate return on investment as we would a mutual fund over 20 years -- and those haven't been so hot lately, in any event.

 

What does this mean to the team and its long-suffering fans?

 

Well, it might help explain why the Mariners continue to avoid pricey free agents in favor of the longer, slower rebuild. Unlike the Angels, who keep spending and rebuiding on the fly with youth like Mike Trout, Mark Trumbo, Peter Bourjos and others.

In the longer run, the value of renewed TV rights might provide the cash windfall this current owner group seems willing to wait for. Maybe it eventually lets the team offer a contract extension to Felix Hernandez by the 2014 season. Or, maybe a new owner willing to pay such a large amount for the team will secure an ownership stake in any new TV deal and use the cash influx from that to re-invest in the team.

 

Whatever the result, don't let anyone convince you of the myth that the Mariners are a "small market" team and poor. You don't make your money owning sports teams on a year-by-year basis. You make it when you cash out. If they want to, the M's owners are poised to cash out big and can sell when they want to.

Remember, Larson tried to sell a 10 percent stake in the team three years ago. The only reason he didn't was because he didn't like the valuation of his shares and chose not to sell. He's free to go ahead and sell right now if he wants to and should get a much better price.

 

It won't change anything regarding the team this season. But better to be informed about what's really going on when somebody tells you about rebuilding "the right way" and that the Mariners have no choice but to maintain the status quo.

 

There is always a choice. This is the one they've chosen. And not merely for on-field reasons.

 

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mari...es_could_d.html

[kitekrazy]

Half of that were Brewers fans.

 

I generally dislike when front office complains about attendance, but KW has an argument.

We go to ~10 games every season, last night was my 3rd game so far, It's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things but its what I can do to help.

If there's fans here who haven't been to a game yet this season, do me a favor and cancel your soxtalk account and go to a game (you're going to have fun).

 

Yes Brewer fans are cordial, knowledgable and nice; but their cheering is the last thing I want to here when the Sox are down.

There were so many Brewer fans last night, you could here booing when the Sox got the benefit from a call.

That drives you crazy if you're out there supporting your home team.

 

You sound as if sports teams should be treated like a charity. To a point they are. Most stadiums are built with tax player dollars.

 

[caulfield12]

You sound as if sports teams should be treated like a charity. To a point they are. Most stadiums are built with tax player dollars.

 

 

Clearly, someday, when the team is sold for $1.2-1.5 billion versus a pittance comparatively in initial investment, they will share the proceeds with the United Way of Greater Chicago.

 

Yeah, yeah, to the victor go the spoils, those with the gold make the rules, we all could have put together an investment group (for example, in the early 80's when I was in middle school) and purchased the team, but that's still not a motivational tactic that a legit marketing team of a well-run franchise should be using.

 

 

[greg775]

Is there anybody out there who would buy the White Sox if Jerry and the investors wanted out?

Would Cuban buy the team? Does he have the cash?

 

[bigruss]

Is there anybody out there who would buy the White Sox if Jerry and the investors wanted out?

Would Cuban buy the team? Does he have the cash?

Yes there would be big interest, and if the Padres selling price is any indication, the Sox would be sold close to $1billion.

[bigruss]

What is ridiculous is for any business owner to make a better product only if customers keep buying the overpriced product. The comparisons to Arte Moreno serves as an example that his investment in a quality product and charging a reasonable price for it is a proven recipe for success.

Yeaaa, no.

 

The Sox put out an expensive product and fans didn't buy it, so they cut back on production costs like any legitimate business would do.

[greg775]

Yes there would be big interest, and if the Padres selling price is any indication, the Sox would be sold close to $1billion.

 

You really think there would be big interest?

Traditionally the Sox have been on shaky ground, almost moving that one year.

As nice as the Cell is ... would any of you be against starting over? New owner? New stadium in the most picturesque part of the city where there could be bars, restaurants, etc., not a slum to the east and southeast and nice, but blah Bridgeport to the west?

[Steve9347]

You really think there would be big interest?

Traditionally the Sox have been on shaky ground, almost moving that one year.

As nice as the Cell is ... would any of you be against starting over? New owner? New stadium in the most picturesque part of the city where there could be bars, restaurants, etc., not a slum to the east and southeast and nice, but blah Bridgeport to the west?

How's Kansas?

[CanOfCorn]

You really think there would be big interest?

Traditionally the Sox have been on shaky ground, almost moving that one year.

As nice as the Cell is ... would any of you be against starting over? New owner? New stadium in the most picturesque part of the city where there could be bars, restaurants, etc., not a slum to the east and southeast and nice, but blah Bridgeport to the west?

 

Shaky ground? Sure, they threatened to move...but that was a loooooong time ago. They aren't going anywhere...that horse has sailed.

 

And yes, no matter what, they are still in the third largest market in the country and there are enough 1%ers that think owning a team is tantamount to wealth.

 

Moving the stadium...again, that horse has sailed. They had their chance with the McPier group and it didn't work. Where else would it go? Suburbs? The better option is to try to make that area better...and it's happening slowly with the Cork and Kerry and the new bar on premise taht I can't remember the name of now.

[Balta1701]

Shaky ground? Sure, they threatened to move...but that was a loooooong time ago. They aren't going anywhere...that horse has sailed.

 

And yes, no matter what, they are still in the third largest market in the country and there are enough 1%ers that think owning a team is tantamount to wealth.

 

Moving the stadium...again, that horse has sailed. They had their chance with the McPier group and it didn't work. Where else would it go? Suburbs? The better option is to try to make that area better...and it's happening slowly with the Cork and Kerry and the new bar on premise taht I can't remember the name of now.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if in about 10 years we started hearing the "new stadium" whispers. If you count the renovations done to Kaufmann and the big A, the Cell is actually becoming one of the older stadiums in the league.

[iamshack]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if in about 10 years we started hearing the "new stadium" whispers. If you count the renovations done to Kaufmann and the big A, the Cell is actually becoming one of the older stadiums in the league.

I would be...they've been constantly reinvesting into the place to the point where it isn't at all the same as it was when it was built...we've had a renovation just as Anaheim has...just over the course of a longer time period.

[Kyyle23]

Shaky ground? Sure, they threatened to move...but that was a loooooong time ago. They aren't going anywhere...that horse has sailed.

 

And yes, no matter what, they are still in the third largest market in the country and there are enough 1%ers that think owning a team is tantamount to wealth.

 

Moving the stadium...again, that horse has sailed. They had their chance with the McPier group and it didn't work. Where else would it go? Suburbs? The better option is to try to make that area better...and it's happening slowly with the Cork and Kerry and the new bar on premise taht I can't remember the name of now.

 

 

[ILMOU]

Shaky ground? Sure, they threatened to move...but that was a loooooong time ago. They aren't going anywhere...that horse has sailed.

And yes, no matter what, they are still in the third largest market in the country and there are enough 1%ers that think owning a team is tantamount to wealth.

 

Moving the stadium...again, that horse has sailed. They had their chance with the McPier group and it didn't work. Where else would it go? Suburbs? The better option is to try to make that area better...and it's happening slowly with the Cork and Kerry and the new bar on premise taht I can't remember the name of now.

 

Love it, whether intentional or not. Hmmm, sailing horses, what would that look like...?

[knightni]

As nice as the Cell is ... would any of you be against starting over? New owner? New stadium in the most picturesque part of the city where there could be bars, restaurants, etc., not a slum to the east and southeast and nice, but blah Bridgeport to the west?

...Isn't Bridgeport North of the stadium?

 

P.S. Bridgeport is very good, in my experience. Not "blah" at all.

 

Plus, I never saw any slums when I was there Sunday. They removed most of that stuff in the 90s.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Yes there would be big interest, and if the Padres selling price is any indication, the Sox would be sold close to $1billion.

 

Higher. They own a chunk of their own cable network, not to mention the parking.

[southsider2k5]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if in about 10 years we started hearing the "new stadium" whispers. If you count the renovations done to Kaufmann and the big A, the Cell is actually becoming one of the older stadiums in the league.

 

When is the lease up?

[Balta1701]

When is the lease up?

2029.

[ewokpelts]

Is there anybody out there who would buy the White Sox if Jerry and the investors wanted out?

Would Cuban buy the team? Does he have the cash?

The rumour i keep hearing is Rocky Wirtz. Aside the fact that he is a sox fan, the word is that John McDonough would run the club and go 3 for 3 in marketing rebuild successes.

Also, the whispers are that no one in Camp Jerry wants to take over when Jerry retires/dies. So even if the ownership groups stays mostly intact(there are still investors from the Veeck days), new leadership may not come from the reinsdorfs or even the einhorns( Eddie's daughter is an mlb exec and MAY come on, but who knows how much she wants to leave nyc)

Edited June 27, 2012 by ewokpelts

[ewokpelts]

Higher. They own a chunk of their own cable network, not to mention the parking.

ISFA owns the lots.

 

And btw, the padres own a stake in thier RSN(worth 200 million)

[ewokpelts]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if in about 10 years we started hearing the "new stadium" whispers. If you count the renovations done to Kaufmann and the big A, the Cell is actually becoming one of the older stadiums in the league.

Well, the lease would only have 7 years on it, so i imagine ownership would look into a replacement for the cell then.

[Paulie4Pres]

Attendance is low because it's still TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE. I'm sorry, but I'm not dropping $300 to take my family to a baseball game...

[caulfield12]

Attendance is low because it's still TOO DAMN EXPENSIVE. I'm sorry, but I'm not dropping $300 to take my family to a baseball game...

 

 

Now the real question is whether the Sox care about a comment like this?

 

Do as many Cubs' fans say the same thing, or they're just paying more for the "experience" of being there, like going to Las Vegas or some random hip/trendy/cool/iconic place they can tell their grandkids?

[Dick Allen]

The rumour i keep hearing is Rocky Wirtz. Aside the fact that is is a sox fan, the word is that John McDonough woul run the club and go 3 for 3 in marketing rebuild successes.

Also, the whispers are that no one in Camp Jerry wants to take over when Jerry retires/dies. So even if the ownership groups stays mostly intact(there are still investors from the Veeck days), new leadership may not come from the reinsdorfs or even the einhorns( Eddie's daughter is an mlb exec and MAY come on, but who knows how much she wants to leave nyc)

Michael Reinsdorf would love to have his father's job no matter what you may hear.