LVSoxFan Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 08:30 AM) I want the 20 minutes of my life back I just spent reading the past few pages. I'm not even sure where that argument began or what it was about. Something about xBoxes or something? I did pick up on the sniping about the purported Soler bid. To me, there was plenty of evidence showing that the Sox had interest and were involved in the bidding for the guy. Apparently the Sox offered (or were prepared to offer) around $25 million. Why argue that? We (on this board) have been talking about Soler since before the season started. But, just because the Sox may have offered the money doesn't mean they have $25 million to spend to make the team better today. When KW talks to the press and says he has no money to spend on players, that's fine. We all know that more often than not, he uses a lot of misdirection. So, who knows if he's actually willing to spend some money. I would hazard to guess that he will spend the money if there's a deal that could truly make the team better and help get them to the post season. But to blame attendance (or lack thereof) is ridiculous. The Sox have one of the highest average ticket price is baseball, and they are in a city with two freaking teams. And the other team has a cult following...well, more acurately the stadium in which that team plays has a cult following (look at me, I'm at Wrigley!). The attendance at The Cell will always be disappointing until the team that plays there can win consistently. A team that was expected to play at or just below .500 performing slightly better will not cause 10,000 extra people to show up each day. A team making it to the playoffs on a consistent basis and winning the occasional playoff series will increase attendance. Like I (and others) have said, going to a Sox game is a big commitment financially, especially if you're taking a family. I would love to go to a half dozen games a season, but I like cash in my pocket more. I like being able to sit my ass on my couch with my kids and a 6-pack of Blue Moon just fine. Sorry, Kenny. /thread BTW, guys, I read yesterday that ratings for Sox games on TV and radio are UP this year, significantly. So it's not lack of interest. Take all the conclusions you want from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 10:52 AM) And also that the parent would not be being disingenuous to their kid if they said they didn't have the money, when it is actually possible that they could scrape it up. That's the key here. We, as fans, don't have a particularly great picture of the team's finances, and so we're not in a particularly great position to understand what moves can be made or which moves cannot. The Organization has no obligation to explain in incredible detail what their revenue sources or funding sources are. And so when asked about whether any upgrades are going to be made to the roster, what is Kenny to do? He is being completely honest when he says that their ability to improve the roster will be directly related to the revenue at the gate. The fact that it is indeed possible for them to scrape together some funds elsewhere is in no way inconsistent with his statement. To look at it otherwise is to take an incredibly naive and unsophisticated view of an incredibly complex situation. I don't disagree with anything here. However, what might rub some fans the wrong way is KW just stating that he can't afford to spend money on players because of low attendance. That is only part of the issue, and my thinking is that it's a smaller part than we may think. As you mentioned, their revenue sources are vast and complex. Attendance is just one piece of that puzzle. The flip side to all of this is, would an acquisition of a big name make an immediate impact on attendance? Who would make a bigger impact on attendance: David Wright or Ichiro? Ichiro, right? But he doesn't help the team that much. Long story short, it must suck to be a GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 10:01 AM) I don't disagree with anything here. However, what might rub some fans the wrong way is KW just stating that he can't afford to spend money on players because of low attendance. That is only part of the issue, and my thinking is that it's a smaller part than we may think. As you mentioned, their revenue sources are vast and complex. Attendance is just one piece of that puzzle. The flip side to all of this is, would an acquisition of a big name make an immediate impact on attendance? Who would make a bigger impact on attendance: David Wright or Ichiro? Ichiro, right? But he doesn't help the team that much. Long story short, it must suck to be a GM. The problem lies in the fact that he can't discuss those other revenue sources... I am not in the war room, or the meetings with the investors, but I get the feeling that these things are case-by-case situations. Kenny says "I think I can get this player. It's going to cost us X amount." Jerry then goes to the investors or even into his own personal funding sources and they determine whether it is worth it to make it happen or not. That isn't a scenario you can discuss with the fans, or the media, or that he may even know about at this time. So what he's looking at is what he knows affects their ability to make acquisitions, and at this point in the year, that is gate revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 08:15 AM) You just treated an entertainment option (baseball, XBox, etc) the same as something that can be key to the development of a person's career/life. I think you misread his original analogy. The kids are the fans, the parents are the front office, the x-box and garbage disposal are the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 i have no analogy. I am seriously going to find a brick wall and repeatedly slam my head against it after reading this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:10 AM) The problem lies in the fact that he can't discuss those other revenue sources... I am not in the war room, or the meetings with the investors, but I get the feeling that these things are case-by-case situations. Kenny says "I think I can get this player. It's going to cost us X amount." Jerry then goes to the investors or even into his own personal funding sources and they determine whether it is worth it to make it happen or not. That isn't a scenario you can discuss with the fans, or the media, or that he may even know about at this time. So what he's looking at is what he knows affects their ability to make acquisitions, and at this point in the year, that is gate revenue. It boils down to KW blaming the fans for making his job more difficult instead of owning up to his mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:28 AM) i have no analogy. I am seriously going to find a brick wall and repeatedly slam my head against it after reading this thread I bet the head is Kenny, and the Wall is the fanbase, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:32 AM) It boils down to KW blaming the fans for making his job more difficult instead of owning up to his mistakes. So he has a first place team for a month, no one comes, and that is his mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:32 AM) It boils down to KW blaming the fans for making his job more difficult instead of owning up to his mistakes. He's not said anything close to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:36 AM) So he has a first place team for a month, no one comes, and that is his mistake. Thinking people should come out after being a month in first place is a mistake. Some standard of excellence their KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:37 AM) He's not said anything close to that. What has he said then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 10:51 AM) What has he said then? How many times do we have to go through this? He's said that his ability to make acquisitions is directly tied to what happens with our attendance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:50 AM) Thinking people should come out after being a month in first place is a mistake. Some standard of excellence their KW. Well he was patting himself on the back last year for putting together teams that spend a few days in first place during several seasons. He really only said one word about it when he was questioned and that was the "yes" at the end. He shouldn't have said it, he tried not to say it, but it happened. The media should be directing their questions at the Sox sales and marketing departments. They are obviously in a slump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:50 AM) Thinking people should come out after being a month in first place is a mistake. Some standard of excellence their KW. So what is the exact standard for first place that fans should observe before paying to see baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:55 AM) How many times do we have to go through this? He's said that his ability to make acquisitions is directly tied to what happens with our attendance. Which is the 100% truth for the Sox organization. I don't get why people want to explode this into a personal vendetta against Kenny and Jerry. It has been like this for 30+ years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I think the Sox and Cubs epitomize the extremes of stupidity in fanbases. Cubs fans keep going like sheep to Wrigley no matter how bad the product is, creating absolutely no financial incentive to the team to put a winning product on the field. Sox fans insist on seeing some almost-unrealistic string of spectacular seasons before they'll think about buying a ticket. When the team starts having some success, there is no money flowing in to use to try and build on that success. There needs to be a happy medium. Have your base number of games you're willing to go to no matter how bad the team is, and then start going more often as the team enjoys success. Don't sit on your ass and say that a month in first place isn't enough to get you to the park and then turn around and b**** that the Sox didn't spend extra money at the trade deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) I think the Sox and Cubs epitomize the extremes of stupidity in fanbases. Cubs fans keep going like sheep to Wrigley no matter how bad the product is, creating absolutely no financial incentive to the team to put a winning product on the field. Sox fans insist on seeing some almost-unrealistic string of spectacular seasons before they'll think about buying a ticket. When the team starts having some success, there is no money flowing in to use to try and build on that success. There needs to be a happy medium. Have your base number of games you're willing to go to no matter how bad the team is, and then start going more often as the team enjoys success. Don't sit on your ass and say that a month in first place isn't enough to get you to the park and then turn around and b**** that the Sox didn't spend extra money at the trade deadline. This is the part that drives me crazy. I can understand making up your mind not to go to games. But then to complain about attendance and payroll in the same breath? Come on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 11:55 AM) How many times do we have to go through this? He's said that his ability to make acquisitions is directly tied to what happens with our attendance. If he said that he's talking half-truths which he does a lot of. He also needs players people want in order to make trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) Don't sit on your ass and say that a month in first place isn't enough to get you to the park and then turn around and b**** that the Sox didn't spend extra money at the trade deadline. Can I b**** about not having players to make deals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 12:13 PM) I think the Sox and Cubs epitomize the extremes of stupidity in fanbases. Cubs fans keep going like sheep to Wrigley no matter how bad the product is, creating absolutely no financial incentive to the team to put a winning product on the field. Sox fans insist on seeing some almost-unrealistic string of spectacular seasons before they'll think about buying a ticket. When the team starts having some success, there is no money flowing in to use to try and build on that success. There needs to be a happy medium. Have your base number of games you're willing to go to no matter how bad the team is, and then start going more often as the team enjoys success. Don't sit on your ass and say that a month in first place isn't enough to get you to the park and then turn around and b**** that the Sox didn't spend extra money at the trade deadline. I don't think anyone has been complaining that the Sox won't be spending money at the deadline. I still maintain they will if it makes any sense. Many times after KW or someone else in the Sox organization throws out the attendance issue, they wind up spending money soon after.My beef is the insunuation its the fans fault. Something KW would understand is Sox fans can't spend $1 if all they have is $.50. If its all about attendance, there are several simple things the Sox could do to increase it,. They think its in their best interest to stay the course with this dynamic pricing. That's their decision. I think its costing them money. Edited June 22, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Can I b**** about not having players to make deals? You always have players to make deals. It's a matter of how highly your organization values the player you want compared the the players the other team is demanding. Also, in a lot of cases, having the $$$ to take on extra payroll decreases the amount of talent you need to send away. KW got Rios for nothing because he had Toronto in a spot where they weren't able to pay even a little bit of his salary in order to get talent in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 My beef is the insunuation its the fans fault. Something KW would understand is Sox fans can't spend $1 if all they have is $.50. If its all about attendance, there are several simple things the Sox could do to increase it,. They think its in their best interest to stay the course with this dynamic pricing. That's their decision. I think its costing them money. The way I see it, both sides have some fault for low attendance. The Sox have not priced tickets, parking, and concessions in a way that works based on the economy and the team's recent performance. For their part, the fans have been slow to respond to the success that the team has had. There are affordable options for going to games if you really want to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 12:48 PM) The way I see it, both sides have some fault for low attendance. The Sox have not priced tickets, parking, and concessions in a way that works based on the economy and the team's recent performance. For their part, the fans have been slow to respond to the success that the team has had. There are affordable options for going to games if you really want to go. You are correct, but people don't want to go through all the effort. Its probably lazy, but Caulfield had something the other day which basically said one problem is too many choices. They need to simplify ticket prices, not complicate them even more. Most just give up and say its not worth the effort. The Sox knew they would take a hit attendance-wise this year. I read that even back in 2005 when the Sox were in first place every single day of the season, they had 3 September crowds in a row less than 20k. A month in first place isn't going to make people flock to USCF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 22, 2012 -> 12:48 PM) The way I see it, both sides have some fault for low attendance. The Sox have not priced tickets, parking, and concessions in a way that works based on the economy and the team's recent performance. For their part, the fans have been slow to respond to the success that the team has had. There are affordable options for going to games if you really want to go. Part of the issue is the White Sox are sort of in no man's land in terms of supply and demand. There is not enough demand to really limit supply, except in Postseason games. This creates the ability to be extremely flexible on which games a fan chooses to go to, rather than having to choose from a limited supply. I think this has an effect of actually discouraging attendance in that a fan always feels like he can go if he ever really wants to go, rather than a situation where a fan has to take the opportunity to go when that arises, because it may not arise again for a long period of time. The key is to make your product a hot ticket, and that breeds even more demand. It's what happens with the Bulls, Cubs and Bears, and teams that have these insane sellout streaks...Red Sox, Phillies, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 why should it be? Because it's primarily a pissing contest between 3 people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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