Dick Allen Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 03:03 PM) And conveniently, they have the 11th highest payroll, after having the 5th highest payroll in 2011. The point is, they shouldn't cry about money. How many other teams cry about lack of funds? Of course many times when KW cites a lack of money, he spends some soon after. JR remembers where he hid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 12:40 PM) IMO, going is better, but not $100+ better. I agree 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 02:53 PM) They are not excuses. They are facts. We have plenty of talent on this team to win the division. But if the fans expect an upgrade, then they need to put their money where their mouths are. I see nothing wrong with saying that. And nothing he has said has been anywhere near that harsh. No fans=No money=No big money additions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:07 PM) The point is, they shouldn't cry about money. How many other teams cry about lack of funds? Of course many times when KW cites a lack of money, he spends some soon after. JR remembers where he hid it. I get the feeling almost all of them do at one point or another. The only time they don't is when they're going on a spending binge like the Phillies 2 years ago or the Rangers the last 2 years. Then when those contracts get expensive and the guys get old, they resume crying poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 03:07 PM) The point is, they shouldn't cry about money. How many other teams cry about lack of funds? Of course many times when KW cites a lack of money, he spends some soon after. JR remembers where he hid it. How much do you follow other team's local beat writers? As if you would even know if they were crying about funds. Secondly, I would love to hear the PR campaign you would have where money was never mentioned as an answer to "are you going to go out and acquire "Player X?" Team's cite money as a consideration all the time in this instance. You're just not a fan of theirs, so you don't pay it any mind. As for the attendance problems being overblown, do you really think that there is no additional revenue to be made from filling up your stadium? If not, why does every single team clamor for a new stadium? Do you not wonder what the money that a team like the Red Sox or the Rangers spends that money on? Do you think they pass it on back to their fans in the form of free beers or something? That is real money that could be applied to payroll, the draft, scouting, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Who can the Sox not trade for because of financial constraints? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 03:03 PM) Who can the Sox not trade for because of financial constraints? Like 75% of the League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:05 PM) Like 75% of the League. Good thing the GM put a solid farm system in place to combat the financial handicap this franchise is operating under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:09 PM) Good thing the GM put a solid farm system in place to combat the financial handicap this franchise is operating under. Which is funny, because how much of our team is home grown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:15 PM) Which is funny, because how much of our team is home grown? And it's a team right in the middle. Nothing to brag about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:09 PM) Good thing the GM put a solid farm system in place to combat the financial handicap this franchise is operating under. Yeah, well, if we had such a solid farm system we probably would be finishing in last every year. Those are usually the teams with the great farm systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Noonskadoodle @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 11:30 AM) Really? Because I'm not seeing a lot of options out there. What would you do Mr. GM? Get ANY major league third baseman from ANY team. That's what I'd do. Because that's all it would take to upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I honestly would rather watch on TV. I love going to the game every once and a while, but it's just not the best way to consume baseball when your chief concern is what is happening on the field. Unless you're very wealthy and can regularly afford tickets in the first few rows around the plate, going to a game is an event, not a hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:34 PM) Yeah, well, if we had such a solid farm system we probably would be finishing in last every year. Those are usually the teams with the great farm systems. We should be coming off multiple post-season and WS appearances by having what most regard as the worst farm system then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) But it's back to the same old issues. Instead of saying we're 27th in attendance, they should be focusing on the fact that we're probably 12th-15th in revenue... Revenue generated >>> Tickets sold It's like comparing movie box office, attendance, etc., from 10 or 20 years ago to today. Of course, you have to take into consideration inflation, the affect of the internet and pirating, IMAX, 3D, marketing/production costs. In our business/operating model, tickets sold and revenues generated from those tickets only account for 20-25% of the bottom line these days. They have numerous and diverse revenue streams that create dollars in other ways. 1) If you want fans to believe in a ballclub, it generally needs to be roughly 10 games or higher than .500 at the All-Star Break....evidence currently suggests we're simply returning to the mean of 5 games above or 5 games below .500, which has been our band range all season long, the worst was 4 games under and best was 8 games over. 2) For the 1,000th time, White Sox baseball is competing with more and more options than ever before in this economy. $100 for one person to attend versus the convenience of watching from home, it's a no brainer for the majority of cash-strapped families out there. The fact of the matter is that the White Sox (as greg likes to point out) have been anything from average to terrible at home over the 2009-2012 stretch. And at least SOME of that has to be attendance related. Look at the attendance from 2005/06/08 when the team was playing its best, it was supported by at least 25-30K fans per game and quite often 30,000+. Coincidence? I think not. In the middle of their "dynamic pricing/maximizing revenue" focus, they've forgotten that perception is 90% of reality. Fans tune in game after game to see empty stands, it doesn't seem like the kind of place to go to have fun. People follow trends, bandwagons, what's popular. They have to increase the supply of fans or stimulate the demand or both.... 3) Along with not playing well at home, the feeling around the ballpark and organization is largely a negative one...and this impacts every team that comes to play at USCF, in the sense that those players would much rather play in front of packed houses and appreciative fans, like they currently have in cities like St. Louis or Detroit. Call it the Carlos Beltran Won't Go to Cleveland Death Spiral Effect. The Indians have actually done a very good job (or great job) of building from their farm system, clearly they USED to have one of the best fanbases in all of sports, but it has been decimated by the economy and two almost complete rebuilds and payroll slashings. They can't generate the revenue from ticket prices OR media, so they have to roll the dice on signing young players to extensions early and cancelling out a year or two of free agency. In the end, at least it SEEMS to fans like they have a plan, whether the fans like it or not, a strategic vision of how they're getting back to competitiveness is being presented to them. And the Indians have responded by playing great at home for most of last year and at least decently this year, compared to the Sox. Whereas our plan is the Mississippi Riverboat Gambler approach. Drafting Hawkins and Barnum was the first time it seemed they made a concerted effort to bring young impact bats into an organization that plays 50% of their games in one of the most homer friendly parks in baseball. Thanks to Ozzie, our roster has been set back a couple of years by his stubborness of wanting to play NL style ball in a band box. Edited June 20, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:45 PM) We should be coming off multiple post-season and WS appearances by having what most regard as the worst farm system then Yeah, and that's really accurate, considering how many of our young arms are pitching in the MLB right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I believe KW was once again only answering a question put to him about the attendence and if/how it affects his ability to add payroll. I could be wrong, but I don't think he goes around bringing up the subject on his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 05:54 AM) Yeah, and that's really accurate, considering how many of our young arms are pitching in the MLB right now. Those are almost exclusively bullpen arms. Our two biggest trades, Stewart and Molina, are showing minimal or no return (so far). What quality starting pitcher, other than Sale, have we produced? (I think it's a bit TOO early to crow about Quintana long-term, many of us were congratulating KW on Humber last year and penciling him into 2013-14-15 rotations at a low cost and that's not looking so good right now). This all goes back to the riverboat gambling nature of KW giving up too quickly on Hudson and then adding on to the waste by throwing money at Manny Ramirez. Edited June 20, 2012 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:37 PM) Get ANY major league third baseman from ANY team. That's what I'd do. Because that's all it would take to upgrade. I will say this - when the best you could do for a starting third baseman is a washed up second basemen you probably don't deserve to win any division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 04:34 PM) Yeah, well, if we had such a solid farm system we probably would be finishing in last every year. Those are usually the teams with the great farm systems. GO ROYALS!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:06 AM) GO ROYALS!!!! That's instructive, at least. Despite them being the worst team in the majors at home, their many offseasons of hype, high draft choices and farm system prospect features had the fans buying in more than ever before this past offseason. They're outdrawing us by 2,000 fans despite how badly they started out of the gate. Last year, they would have been dead in the water. This year, they're right in it and have a great chance to make a run. Fans in Kansas City are so similar to White Sox fans in being fair weather fans, but they do have a beautiful ballpark and reasonably priced parking/tickets/concessions, so that's another factor. But of all the teams in MLB, our fanbase is the most like Royals, Indians and Reds fans. They simply won't support bad or average teams. And kudos go to the Tigers and Brewers for changing the operating models of those franchises and modeling themselves as much as possible after the Cardinals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 06:12 PM) And kudos go to the Tigers and Brewers for changing the operating models of those franchises and modeling themselves as much as possible after the Cardinals. The Tigers are seemingly in a position of regularly losing money on big contracts because they have an independently wealthy owner willing to do that. And now they have 3 DH's as a consequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 05:12 PM) And kudos go to the Tigers and Brewers for changing the operating models of those franchises and modeling themselves as much as possible after the Cardinals. Are you freaking kidding me? Their owner is gonna die in a few years and he wants a championship so bad that he is willing to spend as much money as possible to finally get that ring. How is that anything like the Cardinals? It is way more like the Sam Zell Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 06:14 AM) The Tigers are seemingly in a position of regularly losing money on big contracts because they have an independently wealthy owner willing to do that. And now they have 3 DH's as a consequence. And Illitch is getting closer and closer to the end, so he doesn't care, he wants a title. Despite how badly the plan has worked out on the field so far, talent almost always trumps everything else...at least in a division like ours, except for the anomaly of the White Sox/Tigers vs. the Twins from 2001-2010 with the exceptions of 2005/2006 (although the Twins did win the AL Central) and 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2012 -> 05:12 PM) That's instructive, at least. Despite them being the worst team in the majors at home, their many offseasons of hype, high draft choices and farm system prospect features had the fans buying in more than ever before this past offseason. They're outdrawing us by 2,000 fans despite how badly they started out of the gate. Last year, they would have been dead in the water. This year, they're right in it and have a great chance to make a run. Fans in Kansas City are so similar to White Sox fans in being fair weather fans, but they do have a beautiful ballpark and reasonably priced parking/tickets/concessions, so that's another factor. Their average attendance has increased from 21,290 to 22,647, WOW! They have had 3 night games this month with under 20k in attendance. They are on pace to win 74 games, they haven't won more than 75 since 2003. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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