KW whining about (OK bringing up) attendance again

[caulfield12]

Their average attendance has increased from 21,290 to 22,647, WOW! They have had 3 night games this month with under 20k in attendance. They are on pace to win 74 games, they haven't won more than 75 since 2003.

 

 

When you consider how many games they lost in a row at home, it was historical. It was like our 4-18 stretch in April/May of 2011 that for all intents and purposes wiped out our season and attendance for the remainder of the year.

 

To weather that storm in the beginning of the season and still be outdrawing the White Sox handily when they're the smallest market in baseball (fanbase and media rights), they've shown some strong resiliency.

 

Keep in mind, the White Sox had been in first place for over 3 weeks before last night.

 

Look at the Royals' attendance in that first half of 2003, you'll see a HUGE effect just that season. Or whenever Zach Greinke was pitching for them. Do we even have an appreciable blip up for Chris Sale starts?

 

And games won doesn't matter so much in our division as taking the division. You could conceivably have an 84-85-86-87 win team it this year. Probably not, as we said the same last year and Tigers just took off and crushed everyone down the stretch run, but it's possible this year again.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2012 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Are you freaking kidding me? Their owner is gonna die in a few years and he wants a championship so bad that he is willing to spend as much money as possible to finally get that ring. How is that anything like the Cardinals? It is way more like the Sam Zell Cubs.

 

 

I should have said the 1980's and early 90's Cardinals/Royals (when Kauffman was spending and fans loved their team and owner).

 

The Cards have become more corporate and bottom line oriented, although not quite the Royals' David Glass/Wal-Mart model.

 

And it helped to have McGwire bridge to Pujols...

 

Those franchises have superstars, or had them at least (George Brett, for example). And paid them handsomely. Same as the Tigers of today.

 

 

Then again, the Brewers lost Fielder and Sabathia...but look at where that franchise was 20 years ago, compared to today. You can say it happened simply because of Selig's influence and the new stadium, but there have been other factors at play, such as their tremendous farm system.

[LittleHurt05]

When you consider how many games they lost in a row at home, it was historical. It was like our 4-18 stretch in April/May of 2011 that for all intents and purposes wiped out our season and attendance for the remainder of the year.

 

To weather that storm in the beginning of the season and still be outdrawing the White Sox handily when they're the smallest market in baseball (fanbase and media rights), they've shown some strong resiliency.

 

Keep in mind, the White Sox had been in first place for over 3 weeks before last night.

 

Look at the Royals' attendance in that first half of 2003, you'll see a HUGE effect just that season. Or whenever Zach Greinke was pitching for them. Do we even have an appreciable blip up for Chris Sale starts?

 

And games won doesn't matter so much in our division as taking the division. You could conceivably have an 84-85-86-87 win team it this year. Probably not, as we said the same last year and Tigers just took off and crushed everyone down the stretch run, but it's possible this year again.

 

And as I said, their outstanding farm system hasn't earned them more than 75 wins or even a 3rd place finish in the past 8 seasons. Their attendance is not even at 60% capacity.

 

And I don't know what White Sox attendance has to do with this argument anyway. Sox fans are very, very fair weather, especially since their city has another team with a "historic" stadium to which tourists and baseball fans flock religiously. Better attendance than the Sox is not hard to do.

Edited June 20, 2012 by LittleHurt05

[Real]

Well, we play like absolute horse s*** at home. Could that have anything to do with it?

 

not to mention, the more people at the park seems to correlate with worse play, they're all mental midgets. Thornton and Floyd are King and Queen Midget

[greg775]

It is obvious if you read the quotes that Kenny didn't bring attendance up, but he was asked about it again.

I used to say this about ozzie and got fried for it. Ozzie didn't bring up s***, he was asked about stuff and responded. It goes both ways. KW and Ozzie BOTH answered the questions, didn't bring it up on their own.

 

Are you going to justify the Rios contract? Terrible contract no matter what he is doing currently.

Awful awful contract. He's having a very very good year, but still isn't special. And other years he's been awful most of the time.

 

Lower box in the corner is only $105 right now on the Sox website. Gee, I wonder why they don't sell out? There's no doubt there has been some Sox fan apathy, but its a 2 way street. The Sox have been one of the top 4 or 5 priced tickets in MLB for several years and their new system makes buying tickets during the season even more expensive. Its really a remarkable way to try to cure your attendance "problem".

 

i bought two tickets for my dad as a fathers day gift, $51 best price i could find for lower level vs mil. w/the stubhub fee, $118. and they wonder why attendance is low

Yet most people on here think cost isn't an issue at all. I'm so glad fans have spoken this season and not shown up. These prices piss me off. 80 games at home or whatever it is?? Baseball is way too expensive to go more than once or twice a year and pray they play Paulie that day.

 

Yup, couple that with a terribly unlikeable manager and drama centered around him, and the fans are put off.

 

I know why I dumped my season tickets.

Man, you dumped your tickets because of a WS winning manager? Amazing.

 

[Big Hurtin]

Why doesn't he just say that he has to deal within the budget he has been given by his boss(es)? As someone already stated, ticket sales are only part of generated revenue. As far as attendance goes, they have it backwards IMO. They shouldn't complain about people not coming to games, but find more creative ways to entice people to buy tickets.

[Dick Allen]

How much do you follow other team's local beat writers? As if you would even know if they were crying about funds.

 

Secondly, I would love to hear the PR campaign you would have where money was never mentioned as an answer to "are you going to go out and acquire "Player X?"

 

Team's cite money as a consideration all the time in this instance. You're just not a fan of theirs, so you don't pay it any mind.

 

As for the attendance problems being overblown, do you really think that there is no additional revenue to be made from filling up your stadium? If not, why does every single team clamor for a new stadium? Do you not wonder what the money that a team like the Red Sox or the Rangers spends that money on? Do you think they pass it on back to their fans in the form of free beers or something? That is real money that could be applied to payroll, the draft, scouting, etc.

OK, show me another team who cries about not being able to acquire players because attendance isn't up to snuff. Just one. You mention the Rangers spending money. You may be interested to know according to Forbes, the White Sox had more revenue than the Rangers last season.

 

Attendance is overblown. Its not how many are at the games, its how much was paid to be there. If the Sox really wanted to sell the last 7000 to 10000 seats to last nights game, they would have had no problem doing so. They picked pricing them to where they would not be sold. The fact is its on the White Sox to draw fans. No one has an obligation to go to games. A restaurant doesn't say we will get you better food if you buy this crap first. They shouldn't even be publicly discussing it. They should be spending time trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying you would get better but can't because you're not getting enough business in a way is just showing you agree that your product should be better.

 

Seriously, the franchise could probably be sold for close to $1 billion right now. If they don't feel they have the funds to properly run it, maybe they should sell.

 

The other thing is, we have heard this so many times in the past, then Peavy gets traded for. Rios gets claimed. Manny get claimed. Edwin Jackson is acquired. Enough answering attendance questions KW. The Sox revenue was top 10 last year. That's the number that matters, not the total attendance figure. I just maintain if they lowered some prices, they would get more people into the stands and those extras would more than make up for the loss on the higher priced tickets.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Soxfest]

OK, show me another team who cries about not being able to acquire players because attendance isn't up to snuff. Just one. You mention the Rangers spending money. You may be interested to know according to Forbes, the White Sox had more revenue than the Rangers last season.

 

Attendance is overblown. Its not how many are at the games, its how much was paid to be there. If the Sox really wanted to sell the last 7000 to 10000 seats to last nights game, they would have had no problem doing so. They picked pricing them to where they would not be sold. The fact is its on the White Sox to draw fans. No one has an obligation to go to games. A restaurant doesn't say we will get you better food if you buy this crap first. They shouldn't even be publicly discussing it. They should be spending time trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying you would get better but can't because you're not getting enough business in a way is just showing you agree that your product should be better.

 

Seriously, the franchise could probably be sold for close to $1 billion right now. If they don't feel they have the funds to properly run it, maybe they should sell.

 

The other thing is, we have heard this so many times in the past, then Peavy gets traded for. Rios gets claimed. Manny get claimed. Edwin Jackson is acquired. Enough answering attendance questions KW. The Sox revenue was top 10 last year. That's the number that matters, not the total attendance figure. I just maintain if they lowered some prices, they would get more people into the stands and those extras would more than make up for the loss on the higher priced tickets.

I agree instead of having your GM b**** about attendance EVERY year sell the team JR and be done with it!...............also the tiered pricing system has turned off alot of fans, I know it has me.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Soxfest

[caulfield12]

I'll quote greg/al davis...

 

Just win, baby!

 

(Won't argue the Royals are better than us quite yet, however).

Managers who do nothing are better than micromanagers like LaRussa, Scioscia and Maddon!!!

[caulfield12]

OK, show me another team who cries about not being able to acquire players because attendance isn't up to snuff. Just one. You mention the Rangers spending money. You may be interested to know according to Forbes, the White Sox had more revenue than the Rangers last season.

 

Attendance is overblown. Its not how many are at the games, its how much was paid to be there. If the Sox really wanted to sell the last 7000 to 10000 seats to last nights game, they would have had no problem doing so. They picked pricing them to where they would not be sold. The fact is its on the White Sox to draw fans. No one has an obligation to go to games. A restaurant doesn't say we will get you better food if you buy this crap first. They shouldn't even be publicly discussing it. They should be spending time trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying you would get better but can't because you're not getting enough business in a way is just showing you agree that your product should be better.

 

Seriously, the franchise could probably be sold for close to $1 billion right now. If they don't feel they have the funds to properly run it, maybe they should sell.

 

The other thing is, we have heard this so many times in the past, then Peavy gets traded for. Rios gets claimed. Manny get claimed. Edwin Jackson is acquired. Enough answering attendance questions KW. The Sox revenue was top 10 last year. That's the number that matters, not the total attendance figure. I just maintain if they lowered some prices, they would get more people into the stands and those extras would more than make up for the loss on the higher priced tickets.

 

 

And stop "selling" talent for money back instead of just taking on salary.

 

See Chris Young/Javy deal.

 

Another example would be ditching Jackson just to save the money on Teahen. Adkins/Durham. Holding onto underperforming players like MacDougal and Linebrink instead of cutting the loss to the performance of the major league team. Selling Quentin and Santos for less than they probably were worth.

 

Start running the team in a way that's conducive to winning for a stretch of 2-3 years, not just one year at a time.

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

Selling Quentin and Santos for less than they probably were worth.

We were lucky to get what we got for Carlos Quentin.

[Jake]

We were lucky to get what we got for Carlos Quentin.

 

 

We may very well get a look at Simon Castro with the big league club soon.

[caulfield12]

I just hope he's better than the lost former phenom hotshot we got, Felix Diaz.

 

Although Feliz at least beat the Cubs, that was one of his career highlights.

[Andy the Clown]

You mean the guy with a .542 OPS in 468at bats this year, and the career .495 OPS?

 

Spectacular GM ability.

 

Small sample size in his MLB at bats.

 

Scouts say he matured at AAA this year as a hitter, and has the potential to be a legitimate starter. I'd post the quote, but I don't like your tone. You can find it yourself.

 

I'd rather throw a real 3b with some promise out there than a washed up 2B.

 

Nice analysis. Next.

[Dick Allen]

A poster on another site hit the nail on the head regarding White Sox attendance. He wrote if no one is laughing at a comic, its not the crowd. Considering this is an annual topic, maybe JR needs to find someone who can do something about it.

[Andy the Clown]

Maybe if we built something from within that had a chance to be sustainable, people would be more excited/optimistic. That's what happened in the 90s.

[Soxbadger]

Some fans love their team and show up no matter what, some fans need to be won over.

 

A lot of Sox fans fall into the latter category. There is nothing wrong with that.

[greg775]

OK, show me another team who cries about not being able to acquire players because attendance isn't up to snuff. Just one. You mention the Rangers spending money. You may be interested to know according to Forbes, the White Sox had more revenue than the Rangers last season.

 

Attendance is overblown. Its not how many are at the games, its how much was paid to be there. If the Sox really wanted to sell the last 7000 to 10000 seats to last nights game, they would have had no problem doing so. They picked pricing them to where they would not be sold. The fact is its on the White Sox to draw fans. No one has an obligation to go to games. A restaurant doesn't say we will get you better food if you buy this crap first. They shouldn't even be publicly discussing it. They should be spending time trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying you would get better but can't because you're not getting enough business in a way is just showing you agree that your product should be better.

 

Seriously, the franchise could probably be sold for close to $1 billion right now. If they don't feel they have the funds to properly run it, maybe they should sell.

 

The other thing is, we have heard this so many times in the past, then Peavy gets traded for. Rios gets claimed. Manny get claimed. Edwin Jackson is acquired. Enough answering attendance questions KW. The Sox revenue was top 10 last year. That's the number that matters, not the total attendance figure. I just maintain if they lowered some prices, they would get more people into the stands and those extras would more than make up for the loss on the higher priced tickets.

 

Read this post over and over, people. Dick Allen knows his s*** and is CORRECT!

 

Some fans love their team and show up no matter what, some fans need to be won over.

 

A lot of Sox fans fall into the latter category. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

Badger, you are a rich attorney. There are people WHO CANT AFFORD TO ATTEND GAMES! Don't you agree on that?

[Soxbadger]

I really dont believe that I am rich.

 

That being said you can go on the internet and find codes to every single Sox game.

 

My friends and I got lower deck tickets for $30 on a Saturday. How many people spend $30 at a bar, or even more, or $30 on dinner etc.

 

Now sure, there are some people who just cant afford to attend. But those people cant afford to attend if the Sox win 162 games or the Sox win 0 games. The premise of most peoples argument is that if the Sox won more, or if they had a better team or if they had a younger core, more people would come.

 

[CSF]

Maybe if we built something from within that had a chance to be sustainable, people would be more excited/optimistic. That's what happened in the 90s.

 

 

And how was an important portion of that built? By averaging 72 wins from '86-89. Those records also turned into McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, & Fernandez.

[iamshack]

OK, show me another team who cries about not being able to acquire players because attendance isn't up to snuff. Just one. You mention the Rangers spending money. You may be interested to know according to Forbes, the White Sox had more revenue than the Rangers last season.

 

Attendance is overblown. Its not how many are at the games, its how much was paid to be there. If the Sox really wanted to sell the last 7000 to 10000 seats to last nights game, they would have had no problem doing so. They picked pricing them to where they would not be sold. The fact is its on the White Sox to draw fans. No one has an obligation to go to games. A restaurant doesn't say we will get you better food if you buy this crap first. They shouldn't even be publicly discussing it. They should be spending time trying to figure out how to fix it. Saying you would get better but can't because you're not getting enough business in a way is just showing you agree that your product should be better.

 

Seriously, the franchise could probably be sold for close to $1 billion right now. If they don't feel they have the funds to properly run it, maybe they should sell.

 

The other thing is, we have heard this so many times in the past, then Peavy gets traded for. Rios gets claimed. Manny get claimed. Edwin Jackson is acquired. Enough answering attendance questions KW. The Sox revenue was top 10 last year. That's the number that matters, not the total attendance figure. I just maintain if they lowered some prices, they would get more people into the stands and those extras would more than make up for the loss on the higher priced tickets.

At some point I will go find you this evidence, Dick...tonight I do not have the time nor the energy.

 

That being said, yes, we have a high revenue because we are in a major market. We also correspondingly spend a high dollar figure on payroll. This is obvious and has been pointed out numerous times.

 

The fact remains that will more attendance dollars, more money can be put into payroll. The Rangers, who we both mentioned, have increased their payroll from $65 million in 2010 to $92 million in 2011, and $121 million in 2012. Meanwhile, ours decreased from $128 million in 2011 to $98 million in 2012. These figures are at least partially tied to attendance. You don't decrease your payroll 30 million from one year to the next for s***s and giggles. That is directly a response to attendance and decreasing revenues.

 

 

 

[gatnom]

At some point I will go find you this evidence, Dick...tonight I do not have the time nor the energy.

 

That being said, yes, we have a high revenue because we are in a major market. We also correspondingly spend a high dollar figure on payroll. This is obvious and has been pointed out numerous times.

 

The fact remains that will more attendance dollars, more money can be put into payroll. The Rangers, who we both mentioned, have increased their payroll from $65 million in 2010 to $92 million in 2011, and $121 million in 2012. Meanwhile, ours decreased from $128 million in 2011 to $98 million in 2012. These figures are at least partially tied to attendance. You don't decrease your payroll 30 million from one year to the next for s***s and giggles. That is directly a response to attendance and decreasing revenues.

 

And the decreased attendance was directly a response to last year's team probably being the least likable Sox team I've ever witnessed (albeit, a small sample size for me). Obviously, there are a lot of factors that contribute to continued low attendance this year, but a theory I've had for awhile is that the actual fan base is just not as big as people assume that it is. You always hear about how Sox fans need to go to more games so we can make a deal at the deadline etc. But, I think that it's more the fact that in recent history the Sox have not done a very good job of establishing excitement, which would draw people who aren't exactly Sox fans to the games.

 

Also, does anybody know exactly how much the Sox make off of ticket sales and concessions? I think I remember reading that at least a portion of one or the other went to the state because of the stadium deal.

 

 

[iamshack]

And the decreased attendance was directly a response to last year's team probably being the least likable Sox team I've ever witnessed (albeit, a small sample size for me). Obviously, there are a lot of factors that contribute to continued low attendance this year, but a theory I've had for awhile is that the actual fan base is just not as big as people assume that it is. You always hear about how Sox fans need to go to more games so we can make a deal at the deadline etc. But, I think that it's more the fact that in recent history the Sox have not done a very good job of establishing excitement, which would draw people who aren't exactly Sox fans to the games.

 

Also, does anybody know exactly how much the Sox make off of ticket sales and concessions? I think I remember reading that at least a portion of one or the other went to the state because of the stadium deal.

I don't debate the fans right to not show up...all I am arguing is it has a direct correlation to our ability to spend, which Dick constantly argues against, despite his apparent expertise in accounting. And our GM has every right to express that direct correlation, especially when asked about the notion of taking on more payroll.

[Soxfest]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,2585309.column

 

 

Just posted tonight, fits right into the thread.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Soxfest

[greg775]

That's a great great column

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,2585309.column

Way to go, Trib!