Andy the Clown Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I totally disagree with this. KW doesnt have a long track record of giving up stellar talent. He usually peddles away mediocre talent, but a lot of it. Gio is an exception, but that guy was traded 4 times before he ever hit the bigs, and for some pretty good players. KW has never really had stellar talent to deal. I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 So fans aren't going to games in Chicago, because of what is at Birmingham? Right. Excuse me while I They may not know where Birmingham is, but they know a rudderless ship when they see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:52 AM) No Dick, I have seen the statements before, I just didn't save them on my hard drive for immediate production at your whim. I worked 14 hours yesterday, so I sure as hell wasn't going to spend the few hours remaining after I got home seeking to provide "evidence" for you. Fact is, you don't have any evidence either, outside of these flimsy Forbes reports every year. With the certainty in which you discuss White Sox finances, one would think you are the damned Corporate CPA. My evidence is such quotes don't exist. Teams have always cried poor, but the White Sox are the only team I've ever heard of that actually points to their attendance with the premise they deserve more support, and will be able to improve their team once that support is given. The latest quotes aren't too damning, but KW shouldn't be answering those questions. Why do they even talk about finances publicly? Edited June 21, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:55 AM) KW has never really had stellar talent to deal. I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions on that. Chris Sale, Gordon Beckham, Dayan Viciedo, Brandon McCarthy. One reason why we haven't had top 10 prospects to deal is illustrated right there...we also push guys hard up to the majors, rather than letting them sit in the minors where they would move up the prospect charts. Based on ages, Viciedo could still be in AA and not be too old for the league, Beckham could be in his rookie year and not be unexpectedly old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:50 AM) Bottom line is, you're going to achieve this by default. The rate of attrition for minor league prospects is so great that if they are valued highly by the market, you can almost come out ahead by default sheerly by dumping them all if you're getting back proven veterans. I agree with this. If anyone has a Baseball Prospectus from 5 years ago, go look at the top 100 prospects. The majority, unless you're in an intense fantasy league, you will have forgotten ever existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Chris Sale, Gordon Beckham, Dayan Viciedo, Brandon McCarthy. One reason why we haven't had top 10 prospects to deal is illustrated right there...we also push guys hard up to the majors, rather than letting them sit in the minors where they would move up the prospect charts. Based on ages, Viciedo could still be in AA and not be too old for the league, Beckham could be in his rookie year and not be unexpectedly old. Those guys were all B level prospects coming up, except for Beckham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Ratings are up both on televison and radio and attendance is down. Prices are the problem. If this was 2006, Dynamic Pricing would probably make the White Sox a lot more money. Its not 2006. Its costing them. Edited June 21, 2012 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 10:03 AM) Those guys were all B level prospects coming up, except for Beckham. Which is exactly the point. If you hold these guys in the minors at the point where they belong based on age, they become A level prospects. That's what other organizations do. The White Sox instead have pushed them rapidly upward. If you had Sale in AAA last year, and he put up a sub-2.50 ERA, he's going to be on everyone's top 10 list in baseball coming in to this season. If you put Viciedo in AAA this year and he put up a 1.200 OPS, he'd go into next year back in everyone's top 20. You could also add Daniel Hudson to that list, since he got that treatment as well, but that one is too painful for me to contemplate again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:00 AM) My evidence is such quotes don't exist. Teams have always cried poor, but the White Sox are the only team I've ever heard of that actually points to their attendance with the premise they deserve more support, and will be able to improve their team once that support is given. The latest quotes aren't too damning, but KW shouldn't be answering those questions. Why do they even talk about finances publicly? I'm honestly not sure why the fanbase is so sensitive to it. He's merely putting the fan in a better position to impact the team directly. If you are right and no other team does this, than I say our organization is ahead of the curve. They say show us that you are behind us and we will continue to upgrade the team to the fullest extent of our abilities. To the article I criticized earlier, where the writer compared this notion to a restaurant owner telling the public "if you show up, we will serve you better food," that is just a rotten analogy. The White Sox have continually put together high-priced rosters in attempt to compete every year. They put their best foot forward. Last year they essentially went out on a limb and it backfired. This is certainly not the fault of the fans; it's an economic reality. We overspent and this year we were forced to scale things back a bit. Now we are in a position to win and the GM is saying "we want to win this thing, but until we get more revenue, we can't upgrade much." He is laying out the plan for the fans to impact. I think that is great. Edited June 21, 2012 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:59 AM) They may not know where Birmingham is, but they know a rudderless ship when they see it. The general Sox fan could give a s*** less about what the Sox have in the minor leagues. You are confusing the typical message board fan, with the typical fan. The typical Sox fan cares about what is on the field in Chicago and nothing else. If that was really the case, our biggest attendance years would have been 2000 and 2001 when we had the minor league system of the year according to BA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:55 AM) KW has never really had stellar talent to deal. I'll let y'all draw your own conclusions on that. ah, so he never had stellar talent, but if he did he would have traded it away instead of putting them on the major league team like he did with your so-called "B-level" talent. got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:00 AM) Chris Sale, Gordon Beckham, Dayan Viciedo, Brandon McCarthy. One reason why we haven't had top 10 prospects to deal is illustrated right there...we also push guys hard up to the majors, rather than letting them sit in the minors where they would move up the prospect charts. Based on ages, Viciedo could still be in AA and not be too old for the league, Beckham could be in his rookie year and not be unexpectedly old. Sale was also just drafted two years ago, and could easily still be in the minors. Same with Reed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:00 AM) My evidence is such quotes don't exist. Teams have always cried poor, but the White Sox are the only team I've ever heard of that actually points to their attendance with the premise they deserve more support, and will be able to improve their team once that support is given. The latest quotes aren't too damning, but KW shouldn't be answering those questions. Why do they even talk about finances publicly? I agree, just keep your mouth shut. The media is just doing their job in getting readers to talk about them and they know that K.W. (and Ozzie when he was here) would gladly open their yaps and supply them with fodder that gets them in trouble. You would think that after 12, 13 years of being a G.M. Kenny Williams would know to shut up about attendance and finances. It does nothing but get him in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:00 AM) My evidence is such quotes don't exist. Teams have always cried poor, but the White Sox are the only team I've ever heard of that actually points to their attendance with the premise they deserve more support, and will be able to improve their team once that support is given. The latest quotes aren't too damning, but KW shouldn't be answering those questions. Why do they even talk about finances publicly? People keep asking him about it, because people keep talking about it. It is lowest common denominator reporting. You talk about attendance on the radio, the phones light up. Look no further than this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (balfanman @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:11 AM) I agree, just keep your mouth shut. The media is just doing their job in getting readers to talk about them and they know that K.W. (and Ozzie when he was here) would gladly open their yaps and supply them with fodder that gets them in trouble. You would think that after 12, 13 years of being a G.M. Kenny Williams would know to shut up about attendance and finances. It does nothing but get him in trouble. Look at his quote. He said he doesn't want to talk about it because in the past it has caused a s***storm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:06 AM) Ratings are up both on televison and radio and attendance is down. Prices are the problem. If this was 2006, Dynamic Pricing would probably make the White Sox a lot more money. Its not 2006. Its costing them. I remember it used to cost $47 a ticket for a really good lower deck seat near the dugouts against good teams back in those days. Now you'd be lucky to find ones for $50 without promo codes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:08 AM) The White Sox have continually put together high-priced rosters in attempt to compete every year. They put their best foot forward. Last year they essentially went out on a limb and it backfired. This is certainly not the fault of the fans; it's an economic reality. We overspent and this year we were forced to scale things back a bit. Now we are in a position to win and the GM is saying "we want to win this thing, but until we get more revenue, we can't upgrade much." He is laying out the plan for the fans to impact. I think that is great. I don't believe that the Sox "overspent" by any means. The players way underperformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (balfanman @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:17 AM) I don't believe that the Sox "overspent" by any means. The players way underperformed. When you sign Will Ohman for two years, you most likely overspent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:15 AM) Look at his quote. He said he doesn't want to talk about it because in the past it has caused a s***storm. But then he proceeds to talk about it! Edited June 21, 2012 by balfanman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (balfanman @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:17 AM) I don't believe that the Sox "overspent" by any means. The players way underperformed. Well we overspent as a function of the players not performing. They spent that money based on an expectation that the players would perform, the team would contend, the fans would come, and the revenues would reflect that. It didn't work out that way. I agree with your distinction, but at the end of the day, they had player payrolls not supported by enough revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (balfanman @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:19 AM) But then he proceeds to talk about it! So essentially Kenny should just not say anything in interviews? I'm sure no one would complain about that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (balfanman @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:19 AM) But then he proceeds to talk about it! His quote was this: I don't want to expound because then I get buried because I'm crying about money and things," Williams said prior to Monday's home game with the Chicago Cubs. "I don't want to do it, but yes (it's still an issue.) I guess you would have preferred he said "No comment."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'm no KW fan but he's been the GM 12 seasons and the minor leaguers he's given up that have done anything at the major league level are Gio, Chris Young, a pretty good player, but definitely has had his share of issues, and Daniel Hudson who is pitching a lot like Phil Humber this year. Francisco and Rauch would count I guess, but its not exactly a who's who of MLB stars. KW has made many mistakes, but his track record dealing minor leaguers has probably been as good as any GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 08:19 AM) When you sign Will Ohman for two years, you most likely overspent. But even Ohman, if used correctly (only against righthanders), can be a valuable piece if you plan on competing for a couple of years like they did when they signed him. I do not believe that they overspent on him at the time. If the Sox fall out of contention and become sellers, I would think that there would be several teams that would love to have Ohman on their side for the stretch run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 QUOTE (balfanman @ Jun 21, 2012 -> 09:24 AM) But even Ohman, if used correctly (only against righthanders), can be a valuable piece if you plan on competing for a couple of years like they did when they signed him. I do not believe that they overspent on him at the time. If the Sox fall out of contention and become sellers, I would think that there would be several teams that would love to have Ohman on their side for the stretch run. they can have omen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.