2012-2013 NBA thread

[Soxbadger]

After seeing the likes of Tim Floyd and Vinny Del Negro, I don't see how anyone could hate on Thibs. His teams have really overachieved the whole time he has been here.

 

I dont hate Thibs, I like him.

 

I just would prefer someone else. Hes obviously better than Del Negro and Floyd, but those are 2 of the worst coaches ever.

[bmags]

Those are just words you happened to type in to sentences.

[Balta1701]

Its not panic, panic would be if the Bulls went to the ECF and lost to the Heat in 7 and were blowing up the roster.

 

Its being realistic. Rose tore his ACL, this is not a good thing. The way the Bulls roster is constructed there are major cap issues on the horizon. If the Bulls want to do something they are going to have to start planning ahead. They cant just go into every off-season and try and make moves ad hoc. That just doesnt work.

 

People keep saying "results speak for themselves", but the Bulls have 0 NBA finals. Not 1, not 2, 0.

 

If you are satisfied with great regular seasons and losing in the playoffs, then those are great results. If you dont care about the regular season and want playoff wins, those are terrible results.

 

So the results do speak for themselves, just not in the way you think.

If you say "assume Derrick Rose tore his ACL", then yes, I am satisfied with these regular seasons and playoff runs, because simply the rosters could not possibly have done better.

 

The only way you can make me unsatisfied is if you can successfully hang Derrick Rose's injury on Thibs, which I think is difficult to do given the type of injury, the fact that it wasn't obviously an over-use or poor condition injury, the fact that it didn't happen until the playoffs started, the fact that it happened away from contact, and seemed totally unpredictable beforehand, and could have happened at any point.

[RZZZA]

Long story short: Soxbadger, I don't think you know whats better for this team than Thibs and our FO does. I just don't.

 

You're naming all these things that the FO 'should' do, I don't think any of it is new information to these guys. They know what needs to be done and I'm sure they have a plan of how to do it.

 

Just because you have a plan though, doesn't mean its guaranteed to come to fruition, you know? These guys put us in a great position to contend. We had our shot and it just didn't work out. Now they're reloading for plan B

[southsider2k5]

Its not panic, panic would be if the Bulls went to the ECF and lost to the Heat in 7 and were blowing up the roster.

 

Its being realistic. Rose tore his ACL, this is not a good thing. The way the Bulls roster is constructed there are major cap issues on the horizon. If the Bulls want to do something they are going to have to start planning ahead. They cant just go into every off-season and try and make moves ad hoc. That just doesnt work.

 

People keep saying "results speak for themselves", but the Bulls have 0 NBA finals. Not 1, not 2, 0.

 

If you are satisfied with great regular seasons and losing in the playoffs, then those are great results. If you dont care about the regular season and want playoff wins, those are terrible results.

 

So the results do speak for themselves, just not in the way you think.

 

The Bulls had less talent than most of the top teams in the NBA. The expectation that they should have won an NBA title, and therefore Thibs isn't a good coach isn't realistic.

 

Did the Bulls have more talent than the Heat? The Thunder? How realistic was it to expect big things from the Bulls roster after Noah and Rose went out with injuries? That doesn't mean Thibs is a bad coach at all.

 

The Bulls overperformed their talent level, which tells me the coaching staff is doing a good job.

[Soxbadger]

If you say "assume Derrick Rose tore his ACL", then yes, I am satisfied with these regular seasons and playoff runs, because simply the rosters could not possibly have done better.

 

The only way you can make me unsatisfied is if you can successfully hang Derrick Rose's injury on Thibs, which I think is difficult to do given the type of injury, the fact that it wasn't obviously an over-use or poor condition injury, the fact that it didn't happen until the playoffs started, the fact that it happened away from contact, and seemed totally unpredictable beforehand, and could have happened at any point.

 

I think Thibs contributed to Rose's injury. Look at the game logs, after his first few games out, basically every time he played 38+ minutes he got hurt again. Rose should have been handles with extreme caution and being ultra-conservative. No reason for your star player to get hurt in the regular season.

 

Long story short: Soxbadger, I don't think you know whats better for this team than Thibs and our FO does. I just don't.

 

You're naming all these things that the FO 'should' do, I don't think any of it is new information to these guys. They know what needs to be done and I'm sure they have a plan of how to do it.

 

Just because you have a plan though, doesn't mean its guaranteed to come to fruition, you know? These guys put us in a great position to contend. We had our shot and it just didn't work out. Now they're reloading for plan B

 

I hope you have more faith in them than me.

 

They get paid millions of dollars, I get paid $0.

 

[Balta1701]

I think Thibs contributed to Rose's injury. Look at the game logs, after his first few games out, basically every time he played 38+ minutes he got hurt again. Rose should have been handles with extreme caution and being ultra-conservative. No reason for your star player to get hurt in the regular season.

But you have to admit, it's very difficult to give a "guarantee" either way.

 

Especially since people have said Rose's style of play might start getting him banged up for years.

[ZoomSlowik]

And the FO is well aware of what they have to do. They just aren't in any rush to do it.

 

The fans are free to make panic moves, the FO of a professionaol basketball franchise has to tread more carefully.

 

While you and others may think that a #1 seed doesn't mean anything, it is actually a tangible positive affirmation that this team was an elite contender. You don't play that well, that consistent, that disciplined for that long without being a legit contender.

 

It really doesn't mean anything. In 10 years, no one is going to remember that the Bulls were the #1 seed these two seasons. The NBA champ is just as likely to be a 2 or 3 seed that coasted a bit in the regular season as it is to be the top seed.

 

The regular season and the playoffs are two very different things. The Bulls have basically proven that they can consistently beat teams that are either at a significant talent deficit or don't play as hard as they do. They have yet to win a playoff series against another team that's a legitimate contender. Everyone plays hard in the post-season and you don't get to steamroll teams that rely on Andrea Bargnani for their offense. They can't just get by with defense and depth against the Heat or Thunder, they actually have to execute and put the ball in the net.

 

It's going to be at least another year before we really know if they can do it or not. The odds don't look good when their second and third scorers are Deng and Boozer, both of which are injury prone and likely on the wrong side of their peak. The only reason they have any chance is Rose. If they had Tony Parker at the point instead, they'd be a 5 seed that might get out of the first round.

[RZZZA]

Blaming Thibs for Derricks injury, lol, classic.

 

Why not just blame Derrick himself? If he didn't have such a reckless, physically taxing playing style none of thise would have happened. If he was smart enough to just hang back and distribute the ball like a Nash or a Chris Paul would have, instead of driving in full speed, stopping on a dime and jerking and contorting his body in weird positions...none of this would have happened.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

I think Thibs contributed to Rose's injury. Look at the game logs, after his first few games out, basically every time he played 38+ minutes he got hurt again. Rose should have been handles with extreme caution and being ultra-conservative. No reason for your star player to get hurt in the regular season.

 

 

 

I hope you have more faith in them than me.

 

They get paid millions of dollars, I get paid $0.

 

FALSE

[Soxbadger]

But you have to admit, it's very difficult to give a "guarantee" either way.

 

Especially since people have said Rose's style of play might start getting him banged up for years.

 

I cant absolutely say with 100%, but do I think Thibs use obviously contributed.

 

You guys can love Thibs all you want, Ive watched the games, I dont like his in game coaching.

[RZZZA]

It really doesn't mean anything. In 10 years, no one is going to remember that the Bulls were the #1 seed these two seasons. The NBA champ is just as likely to be a 2 or 3 seed that coasted a bit in the regular season as it is to be the top seed.

 

The regular season and the playoffs are two very different things. The Bulls have basically proven that they can consistently beat teams that are either at a significant talent deficit or don't play as hard as they do. They have yet to win a playoff series against another team that's a legitimate contender. Everyone plays hard in the post-season and you don't get to steamroll teams that rely on Andrea Bargnani for their offense. They can't just get by with defense and depth against the Heat or Thunder, they actually have to execute and put the ball in the net.

 

It's going to be at least another year before we really know if they can do it or not. The odds don't look good when their second and third scorers are Deng and Boozer, both of which are injury prone and likely on the wrong side of their peak. The only reason they have any chance is Rose. If they had Tony Parker at the point instead, they'd be a 5 seed that might get out of the first round.

 

 

Again a person who says #1 seed doesn't matter? It matters a little. If you play consistently well enough, disciplined enough to win #1 seed multiple times in a row, you're a good team. Period. End of story.

 

Bad teams are inconsistent, bad teams are ill-disciplined, bad teams are unstable and disorderly. None of which describes the Bulls.

 

Winning the #1 seed doesn't matter if all you care about is winning the title. But if you ever have to question whether or not the Bulls are good enough to contend, just watch them play. Watch how consistent they are, how hard they try, how disciplined and fluid they are when everything is clicking. Make no mistake about it, this is a good team when healthy.

[Soxbadger]

FALSE

 

True?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4387/gamelog

 

 

Jan 14 TOR W 77-64 1 41:28

 

Mar 12 NYK W 104-99 1 42:43

 

Apr 8 @ NYK L 99-100 1 38:37

 

Apr 15 @ DET W 100-94 1 41:07

 

Apr 28 PHI W 103-91 1 37:13

 

Sorry but the stats speak for themselves.

 

 

[bmags]

I agree that GARPAX aren't who I'd choose at the helm. I'd prefer to have the God Appointed Hand that the Lakers have to make everything work. That said, Rose's injury makes their decisions look quite a bit worse. I think this team could have had really good success getting the Heat when the Celtics did, but we didn't, instead we have a year without our superstar. Mostly, I just don't mind taking a wash next year. It'll give us a playoff team and maybe a nice round of basketball with Derrick back. This isn't an interesting offseason to me, I don't like the idea of blowing it up to play for a draft pick, I think we'll be better served seeing what the hell is going on next year.

[RZZZA]

Things aren't so bad. Worst case scenario, we're irrelevant for a year or 2.

 

This team used to be irrelevant every year, for years on end, and it didn't seem to stop our enjoyment much.

 

These guys know they need to get a 2nd star around Rose, they know it.

[WHarris1]

I agree that GARPAX aren't who I'd choose at the helm. I'd prefer to have the God Appointed Hand that the Lakers have to make everything work. That said, Rose's injury makes their decisions look quite a bit worse. I think this team could have had really good success getting the Heat when the Celtics did, but we didn't, instead we have a year without our superstar. Mostly, I just don't mind taking a wash next year. It'll give us a playoff team and maybe a nice round of basketball with Derrick back. This isn't an interesting offseason to me, I don't like the idea of blowing it up to play for a draft pick, I think we'll be better served seeing what the hell is going on next year.

While the injury has changed things, on the other side of that coin...where would this franchise be without the extremely lucky lottery win of Derrick Rose? Which was pretty much as big of a fluke as his torn ACL. So with his injury you are just about looking at the roster they would have assembled. The only reason this franchise is at all in any sort of title contention is because of that lottery, which doesn't exactly inspire further faith in their ability to make decisions.

Edited July 12, 2012 by WHarris1

[GoodAsGould]

Well even though he isn't always easy to deal with I did respect Badger's opinion before these last 2-3 pages, Thibs might play his guys too many minutes but he is a top5 coach in the NBA right now and wanting to get rid of him doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Also his opinion on wanting to keep all the guys is something any coach would say, it is the GM's job not to care and put together the best team possible to compete.

[Kyyle23]

True?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4387/gamelog

 

 

Jan 14 TOR W 77-64 1 41:28

 

Mar 12 NYK W 104-99 1 42:43

 

Apr 8 @ NYK L 99-100 1 38:37

 

Apr 15 @ DET W 100-94 1 41:07

 

Apr 28 PHI W 103-91 1 37:13

 

Sorry but the stats speak for themselves.

 

Ah right, so don't review previous game logs and compare any of the other gameplay. Again, you just looked at the stats in a vacuum.

 

Derrick should only play 35 minutes for the rest of his life according to Badger. The end.

[WHarris1]

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA

C.J. Watson has drawn interest from several teams. He can be claimed off waivers until Friday at 5 p.m. ET. If unclaimed, he's unrestricted.

 

 

Can someone please tell me why we didn't scoop a 2nd round pick to add a bench player for Watson?

[southsider2k5]

Alex Kennedy ‏@AlexKennedyNBA

C.J. Watson has drawn interest from several teams. He can be claimed off waivers until Friday at 5 p.m. ET. If unclaimed, he's unrestricted.

 

 

Can someone please tell me why we didn't scoop a 2nd round pick to add a bench player for Watson?

 

If someone was willing to offer it, and it fit into their cap situation, it would have been done already.

[RZZZA]

Bulls did explore trade avenues for CJ and Brewer but nothing materialized out of them.

[ZoomSlowik]

Again a person who says #1 seed doesn't matter? It matters a little. If you play consistently well enough, disciplined enough to win #1 seed multiple times in a row, you're a good team. Period. End of story.

 

Bad teams are inconsistent, bad teams are ill-disciplined, bad teams are unstable and disorderly. None of which describes the Bulls.

 

Winning the #1 seed doesn't matter if all you care about is winning the title. But if you ever have to question whether or not the Bulls are good enough to contend, just watch them play. Watch how consistent they are, how hard they try, how disciplined and fluid they are when everything is clicking. Make no mistake about it, this is a good team when healthy.

 

We're not debating good or bad, we're debating good or great. "Good teams" don't win titles very often. The #1 seed doesn't remotely matter in that discussion, winning in the playoffs does. The Bulls had 4 more wins than the Heat each of the last two years, but no sane follower of the NBA would argue that the Bulls were more talented or better than them.

 

Again, the Cavs were the #1 seed several times, that doesn't mean their roster was perfect and set up well to win the title. Lebron basically had to dominate every single game for them to win against other good teams, and that frequently wasn't enough either.

 

Being scrappy and trying hard doesn't win you the title, being the best team does. There's a reason the Bulls were better than Indiana last year and would have beaten Philly with a healthy Rose and Noah. It's not that those teams didn't defend well or try, it's that the Bulls had Derrick Rose and they didn't. When it came down to it, those teams didn't have a guy that could get them shots while the Bulls did.

 

The teams they have to beat to win a title all have that guy, most of them several of that guy. They're simply not as talented as Miami, OKC or the Lakers, which is going to make it hard for them to win a title.

Edited July 12, 2012 by ZoomSlowik

[Soxbadger]

Ah right, so don't review previous game logs and compare any of the other gameplay. Again, you just looked at the stats in a vacuum.

 

Derrick should only play 35 minutes for the rest of his life according to Badger. The end.

 

Reading is fundamental.

 

After Rose was injured this season, AFTER ROSE WAS INJURED, the Bulls should have limited his minutes.

 

That is not the rest of his career, that is if he keeps getting injured in the same season, maybe you shouldnt play him 40+ minutes in his first game back.

 

That is not rocket science.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Soxbadger

[WHarris1]

If someone was willing to offer it, and it fit into their cap situation, it would have been done already.

You would think...

 

If he gets claimed off waivers one would have to wonder. Not too mention obviously you are going to diminish his trade value when you make it blatant to the rest of the league you aren't going to keep him. If he is claimed off waivers or inks a contract similar to the one he was on then the only reason to think it wasn't possible is because no team was willing to part with a 2nd round pick...something which typically nets a couple hundred thousand dollars cash.

Edited July 12, 2012 by WHarris1

[RZZZA]

We're not debating good or bad, we're debating good or great. "Good teams" don't win titles very often. The #1 seed doesn't remotely matter in that discussion, winning in the playoffs does. The Bulls had 4 more wins than the Heat each of the last two years, but no sane follower of the NBA would argue that the Bulls were more talented or better than them.

 

Again, the Cavs were the #1 seed several times, that doesn't mean their roster was perfect and set up well to win the title. Lebron basically had to dominate every single game for them to win against other good teams, and that frequently wasn't enough either.

 

Being scrappy and trying hard doesn't win you the title, being the best team does. There's a reason the Bulls were better than Indiana last year and would have beaten Philly with a healthy Rose and Noah. It's not that those teams didn't defend well or try, it's that the Bulls had Derrick Rose and they didn't. When it came down to it, those teams didn't have a guy that could get them shots while the Bulls did.

 

The teams they have to beat to win a title all have that guy, most of them several of that guy. They're simply not as talented as Miami, OKC or the Lakers, which is going to make it hard for them to win a title.

 

They can still do it though. You keep going back to the Cavs as if them not having won a title justifies your logic that they never would have. Seems like a post hoc fallacy to me.

 

Again, the Bulls management knows that they need to put a legit 2nd star next to Rose before he's tool old. They know it, I'm sure they know every point that's been made in this entire thread. Nobody can tell me they think they know more about basketball than coach Thibs. And nobody can tell me that they know more about GMing them our GM.