2012-2013 NBA thread

[RZZZA]

2nds aren't useless man, picks are gold in the NBA. We got an asset for Korver and we save money, good deal.

[HuskyCaucasian]

@KCJHoop

Per multiple reports, Houston has officially signed Lin to offer sheet. Asik expected to be signed once Knicks announce they're matching.

[Chisoxfn]

Rose did not play well in any game besides the 1st game in that Heat series. So to paraphrase his struggles as "putting Lebron on him" is a vast oversimplification and gives far too much credit to Lebron.

 

Look at his series stats, he went 7-23 in game 2. He went 8-27 in game 4. He went 9 for 29 in game 5.

 

Lebron was on him, what, maybe 3 or 4 minutes TOTAL in the whole series? And only at the end of games?

Rose's struggles had more to do with him playing on a bum ankle in that series (and being physically exhausted from carrying the squad) then LBJ's defense. And this isn't a knock on LBJ's defense, more pointing out the facts related to Rose's struggles in that series.

[Chisoxfn]

I get the notion that the Bulls feel like they have invested so much time into him, that they don't want to see him blossum somewhere else, but it just doesn't make sense to me, especially with Taj coming up for a contract.

You can still trade Asik 6 months from now to a team that wants a big. Yes, the cap hit is bad in that final year, but a team still gets him for on average about 8-9M per year, which isn't horrible.

[Chisoxfn]

Celtics got Greg Stiemsma for basically 0. His per was 13.62 last year (Asik's was 13.44)

 

The problem with the NBA is that if the guy isnt well scouted in college, many NBA teams just wont even look at them. With Asik's lack of improvement on the offensive end, there is just no way to justify this contract. There are a handful of NCAA players each year who are 7 feet or so that arent even drafted, who can just be a body in the middle.

And none of those guys are the elite defensive center/rebounder that Asik is. If Asik was on the Heat, wow, they'd dominate. He's a solid starter on the right team.

[Soxbadger]

2nds aren't useless man, picks are gold in the NBA. We got an asset for Korver and we save money, good deal.

 

2nds are pretty useless. Saving money was what this was about.

 

Whether its a good deal or not has nothing to do with a 2nd being generally useless. Sure there is a chance you strike gold, but very unlikely. Its not NFL where a 2nd is still basically starter level.

[Chisoxfn]

I just hope they have a plan. I totally understand the 2012-2013 season. They know its lost, and they don't want to spend the money on veterans for nothing. That makes sense to me. BUT, what do you do with the team when Rose does come back? If you expect him to be superman and carry the entire team, with the Heat, Nets, and whoever else, that isn't going to work

Meh, Nets aren't that good. The reality is, the Bulls (with a healthy Rose) are still the 2nd best team in the East.

[Soxbadger]

And none of those guys are the elite defensive center/rebounder that Asik is. If Asik was on the Heat, wow, they'd dominate. He's a solid starter on the right team.

 

Asik will never start on a NBA Championship team, I would bet a lot of money on that.

 

The Heat would be hurt by Asik, you would be able to put him on the foul line every possession, which will score a lot less points than LBJ/Wade/Bosh.

 

Watch what the Spurs did to a few teams, they would just foul them without the ball to make the 50% shooter go to the stripe every possession until I believe 2 minutes are remaining.

[chw42]

It doesn't mean much really. A lower D rating is better, but D rating is a stat that is influenced heavily by the other players on the team so it doesn't tell you much about individual defense

 

That is its flaw. Boozer had a 95 DRating last year...

 

But the point is, the good defensive players usually have low DRatings, regardless of who they played with.

[RZZZA]

2nds are pretty useless. Saving money was what this was about.

 

Whether its a good deal or not has nothing to do with a 2nd being generally useless. Sure there is a chance you strike gold, but very unlikely. Its not NFL where a 2nd is still basically starter level.

 

 

You can package picks to either move up in the draft or include in a larger package for a good player. Picks are never useless

[RZZZA]

Rose's struggles had more to do with him playing on a bum ankle in that series (and being physically exhausted from carrying the squad) then LBJ's defense. And this isn't a knock on LBJ's defense, more pointing out the facts related to Rose's struggles in that series.

 

Exactly, and I hate to see people repeating the myth that Lebron "shut Rose down" in that series. Such an oversimplification.

[Chi Town Sox]

2nds are pretty useless, but maybe the Bulls will pick a guy like Jared Berggren who could do a lot of what Asik does, but also can shoot.

 

Korver himself was a 2nd rounder, Michael Redd, Manu, Boozer, Monta Ellis, Rashard Lewis, Stephen Jackson, Marc Gasol, Mehmet Okur. All somewhat recent 2nd round picks

 

You never know

[Boogua]

You can package picks to either move up in the draft or include in a larger package for a good player. Picks are never useless

Second round picks in the NBA are about as valuable as 6th or 7th round picks in the NFL. They are as close to useless as draft picks come.

[Soxbadger]

Like I said there is a chance you strike gold, but the overwhelming numbers are that 2nd rounders do not become NBA starters.

 

 

[Boogua]

Exactly, and I hate to see people repeating the myth that Lebron "shut Rose down" in that series. Such an oversimplification.

Completely agree with you here. There's nothing more overrated than Lebron's man defense.

[Soxbadger]

Here is an interesting youtube about Bulls struggles against the heat in the 2011 playoffs:

 

 

Its just not very good execution, but no one thinks the Bulls have coaching issues.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Soxbadger

[ZoomSlowik]

1) The good ol' what if scenario. Bricking open shots happens in every game, every series, more often than you think. If three point shooting was a huge part of your offense, you are bound to have nights like that. It's pretty simple, the Bulls weren't going to win that series with the rest of that team if Rose was shut down. Suppose even if the shooters caught fire, they were still going to put Lebron Rose. With Lebron on Rose, and without that missing guy to run and create the offense, Bulls had no shot.

 

2) Sounds like you are talking about Ben Gordon or JJ Reddick. While I do see your point, I think the first need for that missing piece is ball handling and scoring, much like Durant and Harden, and the secondnary need is the three point shot. I think you are looking for a guy with shooting as a primary shooting, who can do a bit of scoring and handling, though I don't think that would be as good a fit and as effective in this system.

 

3) While we don't need a guy like Durant for us to beat the Heat, the guy we need isn't as easy to obtain as we would like, if it was easy, we would have gotten him already. I see guys like Harden Ginobili, the Joe Johnson from two years ago, and even Mayo or Thornton as great fits for the team. They also happen to be scorer first and shooter second.

 

1) It wasn't one night, it was the every game but game 1. Korver shot 28.6% on the series, Bogans 30%. They went into that series with basically one threat from 3, and he was awful. If you have guys that can hit that shot, they can spread the floor for Rose and he has more chances to make plays. See the Heat during the finals.

 

2) Durant and Harden aren't really ball-handlers, they're shooters. Durant takes 15 shots a game from outside the basket area and 50% of his shots are from 16 feet or farther out. Harden takes 7 of his 10 from outside the basket area and 46.5% of his shots are 3's. They have some ability to drive, but it's far from their main skill.

 

3) How exactly are you a "scorer" first when the majority of your shots are long jumpers? That makes no sense. Percent of shots from outside 16 feet for the guys you mentioned:

 

Harden: 56%

Manu: 57% in 10/11, 53% on 09/10 (last year is a small sample)

Johnson: 51% in 10/11, 52% the year before (wasn't sure which you meant by "two years ago")

Mayo: 63% this year, 67% the year before

Thornton: 52% this year, 54% last year

 

All those guys are extremely reliant on their jumper and only Thornton gets more attempts at the rim than Luol Deng. Guys like Rose or Evans or Westbrook or Parker are guys that are primarily ball-handlers/scorers, they get much closer to 40% of their shots from outside and more like 6 shots at the rim than around 3(one definite outlier is Monta Ellis, who takes a lot of dumb jumpers despite his driving ability).

 

Most of those guys are exactly the type of guy I was talking about (Mayo not ideal, too jumper-heavy and not a good enough shooter to compensate). All of them can play off the ball (ISO Joe would have to adjust a bit) and hit jumpers, but still get there own shot to some degree. None of them are the kind of guy that would fight for the ball like a Wade or Evans or Ellis type. I'd even settle for an Arron Afflalo, though he's a little less adept at getting his shot than I'd like. SOMETHING besides relying on role players and washed up vets.

Edited July 13, 2012 by ZoomSlowik

[RZZZA]

Here is an interesting youtube about Bulls struggles against the heat in the 2011 playoffs:

 

 

Its just not very good execution, but no one thinks the Bulls have coaching issues.

 

A lot of inexperience between a 22 year old PG and a first year head coach and a newly assembled team.

 

We didn't beat the Heat in the ECF -----> We are never going to beat the Heat and should blow it up

 

I just don't agree with that logic

 

 

[Soxbadger]

A lot of inexperience between a 22 year old PG and a first year head coach and a newly assembled team.

 

We didn't beat the Heat in the ECF -----> We are never going to beat the Heat and should blow it up

 

I just don't agree with that logic

 

Who said that?

 

I believe what many Bulls fans are saying is:

 

We didnt beat the Heat, therefore the Bulls should IMPROVE their roster.

 

And yah there was inexperience, which is why after 2011 most people believed the Bulls would improve and that there was no need to drastically make changes.

 

But in 2012 the Bulls did the same nonsense on offense, there was basically no improvement on that end in terms of play calling and running plays.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Soxbadger

[bmags]

The Heat would be hurt by Asik, you would be able to put him on the foul line every possession, which will score a lot less points than LBJ/Wade/Bosh.

 

It's things like this, why nobody would take your analysis seriously.

 

You wouldn't be able to put asik on the line, because asik wouldn't have the ball in his hands...evvvvver

[bmags]

But the Bulls still in 2012 did the same nonsense on offense, there was basically no improvement on that end in terms of play calling and running.

 

The chemistry offensively between boozer and noah was vastly improved this year. The playcalling for boozer was way way way better. Rose got hurt. That's what happened. Sorry! I know it sucks! but things happen in life!

[RZZZA]

Who said that?

 

I believe what many Bulls fans are saying is:

 

We didnt beat the Heat, therefore the Bulls should IMPROVE their roster.

 

And yah there was inexperience, which is why after 2011 most people believed the Bulls would improve and that there was no need to drastically make changes.

 

But in 2012 the Bulls did the same nonsense on offense, there was basically no improvement on that end in terms of play calling and running plays.

 

 

Yeah, but you're suggesting we fire our head coach? Thats considered blowing it up where I come from.

 

Yes we should improve our roster, but not by trading our core and not by getting a new coach.

[Soxbadger]

It's things like this, why nobody would take your analysis seriously.

 

You wouldn't be able to put asik on the line, because asik wouldn't have the ball in his hands...evvvvver

You dont watch basketball then,

 

You can foul away from the ball up until 2 minutes left.

 

Watch the Spurs with Popovich.

 

This is why no one should take you seriously, you dont watch NBA basketball.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Balta1701]

But in 2012 the Bulls did the same nonsense on offense, there was basically no improvement on that end in terms of play calling and running plays.

Nothing that I see them doing in that video is "nonsense". That's the basis of their system, Rose driving and breaking down the defense.,

 

The problem there is that if no one else is making a shot, particularly Korver, the Heat can collapse on Rose and it winds up being 3-4 on 1 because they don't have any other fear of an outside shot.

 

That is why Hamilton was supposed to be the key addition...a guy who can hit that mid-range jumper from the SG spot without sacrificing defense as was done with Brewer. If you had Hamilton, 2 bigs, Rose, and Korver/Deng in at once, you have the ability to kick out to either Hamilton or Deng, whoever is left open, or you have an empty path for Rose.

[RZZZA]

Yeah, except I fear hamilton proved to be much worse on defense than Thibs had anticipated...