Jordan4life_2007 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:26 PM) They should have let it ride this year and try to win a ring. They're not a tax team, so there wasn't really an excuse this year. Next year you match on Harden, amnesty Perkins and trim some of your multi-million dolar bench players. It's not like those guys are any good unlike the Bulls' bench). I'd rather give Harden the $14.5 mil a year than Perkins, Daquan Cook and Eric Maynor (which is actually close to $15 million). They can't really afford to pay $8 million for a defense-only center that's only useful against like 5 teams. Thabo can go the next year too, of course then you need to draft/sign a cheap D-guy to start with You roll with a lineup of Westbrook/Thabo/Durant/PJIII or Collison/Ibaka most of the time, bring in the best big body you can get for the vet minimum for those rare times you need a real center (someone in the Joel Anthony mold) with Harden staying as your ace off the bench. It worked for Miami, the Thunder can do it just as easily. This is all moot. As word is Harden is set to sign a 5 year, $78 million dollar contract extension with the Rockets. In other words, Harden wanted to get paid. And that's fine. But how many teams in the league have 3 max players and another near max player? OKC offered Harden 4 years and 55.5 million and he turned it down. As far as Perkins goes, once Dwight Howard took his talents to LA, amnestying him was no longer an option. Perry Jones is a total project right now. Talented. But a project. Chances of him being ready to be a legit starter by next year are almost zero. And you're ignoring Lamb and the almost certain lottery pick (the raptors pick) that they get this summer. So they've kinda already done what you're advocating as far as the bench goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:29 PM) No way Martin is better. There's a reason Harden is going to get the max: a lot of teams want him. Martin's a fairly solid player, but he's basically the Luol Deng of shooting guards: they have different skill sets, but they're both decent but not stellar guys that won't get you anywhere. Harden was just absurdly efficient last year, he's basically a young Manu Ginobili. Manu has never made max money. He's actually turned down less money to stay in SA. Harden wanted no part of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) Manu has never made max money. He's actually turned down less money to stay in SA. Harden wanted no part of that. The dude needed the extra money to get his teeth fixed. Who can blame him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:45 PM) This is all moot. As word is Harden is set to sign a 5 year, $78 million dollar contract extension with the Rockets. In other words, Harden wanted to get paid. And that's fine. But how many teams in the league have 3 max players and another near max player? OKC offered Harden 4 years and 55.5 million and he turned it down. As far as Perkins goes, once Dwight Howard took his talents to LA, amnestying him was no longer an option. Perry Jones is a total project right now. Talented. But a project. Chances of him being ready to be a legit starter by next year are almost zero. And you're ignoring Lamb and the almost certain lottery pick (the raptors pick) that they get this summer. So they've kinda already done what you're advocating as far as the bench goes. They didn't HAVE to give Harden 5-78. The worst case scenario if they didn't want to give him a full max was matching a qualifying offer of 4-58 in the off-season. If Houston wants to throw around money like a drunken millionaire at a strip club, that's their perrogative (seriously, they're going to be paying $45 million to Harden, Lin and Asik in two years. Yikes). Edit- that number also doesn't appear to be accurate. From the recent AP article that basically everyone is running: The Thunder offered Harden $55.5 million over four years -- $4.5 million less than the max deal Harden coveted and will get from the Rockets, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard. Screw both parties if that's really all it would have taken to get it done! A "max deal" under the new CBA isn't what it used to be. They don't have to give these guys $17 million a year. The only guy that would be making over $15 mil for the Thunder next year would be Durant because of "the Rose rule". Their top-4 would be making just under $60 million next season, obviously going up from there. There are several other teams that are in the same range. The Lakers top-4 will be making like $75 million this year. The Nets will be paying their top-4 $63 million and that doesn't include nearly $10 million for Wallace. The Bulls are going to be giving $56 million to their top-4 this year. Hell, the Grizzlies are going to be at $54 million for Randolph/Gay/Gasol/Conley. The Heat and Knicks don't have a big 4th salary, but their "Big 3" are going to be making $52 million and $53 million respectively. It's not new either, Boston was giving nearly $60 million to KG/Pierce/Allen before they started taking paycuts, the Magic went nuts after their Finals run, ect. I'm sure I could find more examples if I looked hard, but the point is that wouldn't be an absurdly out of line total for a championship-caliber core. I was advocating going cheap on their role players with the assumption that they'd have two superstars, a good defender/rebounder with upside and an elite scorer off the bench. That kind of core gives you a ton of leeway with the rest of your roster. They made the Finals last year and mostly held their own against the Heat even though they were getting about 10 points and 10 rebounds COMBINED from two of their starters. They wouldn't need Jones (or whomever) to average 14-8, they'd just need them to not be an embarrassment. However, they got rid of one of those guys now. That means they'll need more production from their role players. They got away with 4 guys that were any threat to score last year (one of which was Ibaka, who wasn't terribly consistent) and just traded one of them. Now they need guys like Lamb, Jones and those draft picks to produce fairly early if they're going to avoid taking a step back. If Harden were around, they wouldn't need to strike gold again, just find warm bodies to fill a few needs with the vet minimum/late picks. Edited October 29, 2012 by ZoomSlowik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) Manu has never made max money. He's actually turned down less money to stay in SA. Harden wanted no part of that. That's not really relevant to the issue. The Spurs got lucky and signed him to a reasonable deal before Manu became Manu. He signed for six years in the 2004 off-season after his second year where he shot 41.8% from the floor and averaged 12.8-4.5-3.8. He got a lot better after that. His most recent deal was for $13 million a year, which is about market value considering he was 33 at the time, not 23 like Harden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Zoom, I admit I can't see you when it comes to the money side of the game. I checked hoopshype. I thought Harden was a straight up FA after this year. I was wrong there. Still, I don't believe Harden is as good as you make him out to be. He's got the crazy look and has flourished in a 6TH man role. Therefore I think he's overrated. He's not Kobe, Wade, or even healthy T-mac, Vince or Ray Allen, IMO. But in this day and age, where advanced stats have become more maintstream, Harden looks like a god. And I love advanced stats. I see where the Thunder are coming from: 1: they don't want to deal with the distraction that would come with Harden's long-term future up in the air. 2: they're trying to build a sustainable juggernaut. They're not selling out for 1 or even two years (aka they've got two stars and a semi-star already locked up. They feel they can replace Harden or come close on the cheap). 3: you're picking on Kevin Martin when his value is down due to an injury-plagued year in a short, f***ed up season. 4: they're not the lakers or any of the other teams you named. You've got the spurs. but they've never had multiple max guys. Again, they're trying to build a 5-6 year juggernaut. Edited October 29, 2012 by Jordan4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I'm actually really intrigued by Lamb You've got a depth chart of... Westbrook/Maynor Thabo/Martin/Lamb Durant/PJIII Ibaka/Collison Perkins/Thabeet I know Martin is expiring, but I feel like Lamb is the odd man out. It would make no sense to trade him, but I wish they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 11:03 PM) Zoom, I admit I can't see you when it comes to the money side of the game. I checked hoopshype. I thought Harden was a straight up FA after this year. I was wrong there. Still, I don't believe Harden is as good as you make him out to be. He's got the crazy look and has flourished in a 6TH man role. Therefore I think he's overrated. He's not Kobe, Wade, or even healthy T-mac, Vince or Ray Allen, IMO. But in this day and age, where advanced stats have become more maintstream, Harden looks like a god. And I love advanced stats. I see where the Thunder are coming from: 1: they don't want to deal with the distraction that would come with Harden's long-term future up in the air. 2: they're trying to build a sustainable juggernaut. They're not selling out for 1 or even two years (aka they've got two stars and a semi-star already locked up. They feel they can replace Harden or come close on the cheap). 3: you're picking on Kevin Martin when his value is down due to an injury-plagued year in a short, f***ed up season. 4: they're not the lakers or any of the other teams you named. You've got the spurs. but they've never had multiple max guys. Again, they're trying to build a 5-6 year juggernaut. I never claimed he was as good as any of those guys at their peak. However, look at the shooting guard position right now, it's pretty weak. Who's #3 behind Kobe and Wade? There isn't really a clear answer right now. I'm not saying it's Harden, but he was awesome last year. If he plays anywhere close to that in a bigger role in Houston, he might be #3. Guys that can create their own shot aren't all that common, and guys that don't need to dominate the ball the entire game to put up points are rare too. He scored 16.8 last year in 31 minutes on only 11 FG attempts. That's pretty damn good. He also only has 3 years under his belt and just turned 23. He's doing this very early in his career, even in his second year he was showing significant potential. As for Martin, when does he ever have a non-injury plagued year? That's part of the deal with him. He had the same kind of season in 09/10 and you can't use the lockout excuse for that one. If he's not making jumpers or getting to the line, he's just not very useful. Harden can actually make plays in the pick-and-roll and make SOME plays as a passer while offering the same scoring ability. They traded the best player in this deal. In the NBA, you lose the vast majority of the time when you do that. They'd never make this deal for basketball reasons, it's all financially motivated. They made their team worse this year and likely next year (Martin gone and Lamb/Jones/picks still developing) in the hopes that they can fill some holes down the road. It's possible that it's not going to be a big enough drop-off to matter, but they're still giving up a young, proven NBA producer for a stop-gap and some future pieces. They may win out in this deal if those young pieces work out. It's WAY too early to grade that portion of the deal though. They've hardly guaranteed that they have "a sustainable juggernaut". If anything, they're giving up on the sure thing by trading the third best player from a team that made two deep playoff runs. 75-80% of non-lottery first rounders aren't any more than role players and even with lottery picks outside of the top-5 it's a 50/50 proposition. Nobody hits on every pick. I'm not even saying it's a clear loss right now. What I am saying is I don't see how you can say it's a win so far. Right now the biggest impact this trade has had is on Clay Bennett's wallet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 28, 2012 -> 11:16 PM) I'm actually really intrigued by Lamb You've got a depth chart of... Westbrook/Maynor Thabo/Martin/Lamb Durant/PJIII Ibaka/Collison Perkins/Thabeet I know Martin is expiring, but I feel like Lamb is the odd man out. It would make no sense to trade him, but I wish they would. I'd keep Lamb since he's probably their Thabo-replacement as their defensive stopper and they're hoping he develops some offense. They could definitely use someone that's going to help them sooner rather than later though, they've got 4 years before Durant is an unrestricted free agent. I'd definitely be trying to flip PJIII and a pick or two for a young stud/really good prospect on a rookie deal (Enes Kanter as a somewhat realistic option?). If I could somehow get a top-5 pick in 2014, I'd love to get my hands on that since it's probably a good class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 (edited) Harden runs with his ass too high and looks like an idiot. Martin, Durant, and Westbrook are going to live at the foul line. Future moveable parts or cheap assets (Lamb, picks) help sustain championship runs. The Thunder found a team that has been desperate to find a part to build around (desperately trying to overpay for Pau Gasol, desperate to get Dwight to agree to come, desperate to throw money at Lin, Omer), and they fleeced them. Good luck building around a shooting guard, Houston. And again, Harden runs with his ass too high. And he looks like Ehren McGhehey in 'Jackass Terror Taxi' wearing the beard of pubic hair. WIN Thunder. Edited October 29, 2012 by Steve9347 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 It will be interesting to see Harden go from being the 3rd option on the Thunder, to the first option on the Rockets. He is going to have a lot of pressure on him to perform, where he was pretty well protected in OKC, by a couple of legit superstars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 29, 2012 -> 07:51 AM) It will be interesting to see Harden go from being the 3rd option on the Thunder, to the first option on the Rockets. He is going to have a lot of pressure on him to perform, where he was pretty well protected in OKC, by a couple of legit superstars. When the pressure was on him in the NBA Finals, he pretty much disappeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Houston's team is still awful, but that has more to do with dumping two starting-caliber point guards and their best big man and replacing them with a marketing campaign and the Bulls' fourth best big man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 A much more long-winded summary of my thoughts on the Harden trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Thinking about getting T-Wolves tix for the 29th against the Suns since I'll be in Minneapolis. They are so cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Oct 29, 2012 -> 04:18 PM) Thinking about getting T-Wolves tix for the 29th against the Suns since I'll be in Minneapolis. They are so cheap. Perhaps you can get Andre Kirilenko's autograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippedoutpunk Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Good win for the Heat. Any chance to see KG and Rondo get pooped on is always great. Now time for the Lakeshow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 QUOTE (flippedoutpunk @ Oct 30, 2012 -> 09:46 PM) Good win for the Heat. Any chance to see KG and Rondo get pooped on is always great. Now time for the Lakeshow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 The Heat are deep as f*** this year, and playing "without positions" is going to be the next evolution of the NBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Dwight went 3/15 from the free throw line last night. Epic. He generally looked like s***, and the Princeton offense the Lakers were running was a s***show. They'll get their act together, but it'd be an extreme waste of Steve Nash's unique skill set to rarely have the ball in his hands. Oh, and here's Mark Cuban when Dwight fouled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Is Eric Gordon ever healthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippedoutpunk Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 31, 2012 -> 08:36 AM) They'll get their act together, but it'd be an extreme waste of Steve Nash's unique skill set to rarely have the ball in his hands. Yea, Nash played more without the ball in one quarter last night than he did in his entire time with the Suns. You guys know how that saying goes, the Miami Heat werent built in one day... Wait yeah they were, the Lakers will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 31, 2012 -> 12:50 PM) Is Eric Gordon ever healthy? Nope. Too bad, the guy can play. He'll be reaching Greg Oden territory with another year or two like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 31, 2012 -> 08:36 AM) Dwight went 3/15 from the free throw line last night. Epic. He generally looked like s***, and the Princeton offense the Lakers were running was a s***show. They'll get their act together, but it'd be an extreme waste of Steve Nash's unique skill set to rarely have the ball in his hands. Oh, and here's Mark Cuban when Dwight fouled out. Carlos Boozer does that head-bob after an and 1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 29, 2012 -> 04:48 PM) Perhaps you can get Andre Kirilenko's autograph. If only they'd let me bring in an AK47 to have signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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