2012-2013 NBA thread

[Balta1701]

There is no doubt in my mind LeBron is the second most dominant player I have ever seen in my lifetime. That is my usual standard when it comes to GOAT discussions. It isn't about comparisons to other players and eras, it is about what you can compare and that is what they did in their own time. Using that standard my top 3 (again that I have seen) would be Jordan, James, and Shaq.

Hmm, Lebron right now and Shaq in late 90's early 2000's is actually something interesting to think about in terms of which dominated more.

[Boogua]

Hmm, Lebron right now and Shaq in late 90's early 2000's is actually something interesting to think about in terms of which dominated more.

I would say in the regular season it's lebron, but in the playoffs it's shaq.

[ZoomSlowik]

There is no doubt in my mind LeBron is the second most dominant player I have ever seen in my lifetime. That is my usual standard when it comes to GOAT discussions. It isn't about comparisons to other players and eras, it is about what you can compare and that is what they did in their own time. Using that standard my top 3 (again that I have seen) would be Jordan, James, and Shaq.

 

Hakeem was pretty monstrous for about a 4-year stretch too. Check out his career playoff numbers, pretty ridiculous.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

USA bringing the defense to the next Olympics: Thibodeau, Monty Williams joining Boeheim on Coach K's staff, per source.

— Brian Mahoney (@briancmahoney) June 10, 2013

[Steve9347]

Thibs with LeBron = shutouts.

[Rowand44]

Can Thibs not work with Lebron? That's scurry.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I wouldn't say "better". He'd still be a superstar, but we've seen what can happen if you're physical with him. Lebron is bigger and more athletic than everyone he plays now, but he occasionally goes through stretches where he can't get to the rim and basically stops trying to score. He starts becoming a passer and doesn't shoot it unless he's within 5 feet of the rim or it's a wide open jumper. See the 2011 Finals, the last two games and chunks of the Chicago and Indiana series (yeah, he still was quite good in those last two, especially against Indiana. I mean he does have 4 MVP's). Teams in the 90's packed the paint a lot more (watch Michael against the Pistons or Knicks sometime) and had big men a lot more imposing than Chandler and Hibbert. He'd likely have to lean on his jumper more, which is good but not great.

 

It's nitpicking to the highest degree since he'd still be at the top of the league with MJ (and arguably Hakeem/Shaq, but I hate big/small arguments), but I honestly think Durant's game would translate a little better offensively. Durant is a much better jumpshooter and teams in that era definitely had stretches where they conceeded the long jumper (Depending on how teams tried to guard him of course. Under the "Jordan Rules", he'd have issues because he can struggle to get open. If they guard him like Chris Mullin, he'd do well). Lebron would still be better overall because of his ball-handling and defensive versatility though.

 

Of course teams packed the paint more back then. You could do that and get away with it. The 3-point shot has evolved into the most dangerous weapon in the game. Players are taking and making WAY more 3's at better percentages than at any point in the 90's, let alone the 80's. It all started with the D'antoni Suns. Try to pack the paint today and you're gonna get blitzed from the outside more times than not. All these stretch fours, something that didn't exist in the 90's outside of I guess Cliff Robinson, and 6'10+ guys that can actually put the ball on floor and create makes for better spacing. Those Pistons/Knicks tactics would fail miserably in the modern era.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Jordan4life

[ZoomSlowik]

Of course teams packed the paint more back then. You could do that and get away with it. The 3-point shot has evolved into the most dangerous weapon in the game. Players are taking and making WAY more 3's at better percentages than at any point in the 90's, let alone the 80's. It all started with the D'antoni Suns. Try to pack the paint today and you're gonna get blitzed from the outside more times than not. All these stretch fours, something that didn't exist in the 90's outside of I guess Cliff Robinson, and 6'10+ guys that can actually put the ball on floor and create makes for better spacing. Those Pistons/Knicks tactics would fail miserably in the modern era.

 

Name two of those. The only one that I can think of is Kevin Durant. Lebron, George, Josh Smith, ect are all 6'8"/6'9" much like 80's/90's players like Magic, Bird, Scottie, Schrempf off the top of my head.

[Balta1701]

Name two of those. The only one that I can think of is Kevin Durant. Lebron, George, Josh Smith, ect are all 6'8"/6'9" much like 80's/90's players like Magic, Bird, Scottie, Schrempf off the top of my head.

You named one, I'll add Dirk. Does Bosh count also?

[ZoomSlowik]

You named one, I'll add Dirk. Does Bosh count also?

 

How exactly is Dirk a guy that "puts it on the floor and creates"? I must have missed all these plays where he catches the ball on the wing and drives to the rim. A huge percentage of his shots are post-ups and catch-and-shoot jumpers. 2.6 assists per game doesn't exactly scream "creator" either. Bosh at least drives a little more (or more accurately, used to), but nowhere near of the frequency of your average "ball-handler". Hakeem was a better ball-handler than either of them, I still wouldn't call him a guy that "puts it on the floor and creates space."

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Jordan4life_2007]

Name two of those. The only one that I can think of is Kevin Durant. Lebron, George, Josh Smith, ect are all 6'8"/6'9" much like 80's/90's players like Magic, Bird, Scottie, Schrempf off the top of my head.

 

Durant, Dirk, Bosh, Gasol, KG, Odom (yes, he sucks now. but he was the 6th man of the year just two years ago), Aldridge, Cousins. Of course, Durant is the only player here that's in his prime. The others are either past their prime, too young or just fallen off a cliff. Fact is we've seen all these guys in a relatively short amount of time.

[ZoomSlowik]

Durant, Dirk, Bosh, Gasol, KG, Odom (yes, he sucks now. but he was the 6th man of the year just two years ago), Aldridge, Cousins. Of course, Durant is the only player here that's in his prime. The others are either past their prime, too young or just fallen off a cliff. Fact is we've seen all these guys in a relatively short amount of time.

 

I'll give you KG and Odom, but both of those guys aren't doing much of that anymore.

 

I'm obviously getting a completely different definition from that phrase than you are. Aldridge does basically zero ball-handling, I have no idea where you're going with that. It's similar for Dirk and Cousins. Gasol is a nice passer, but he's not exactly going to kill you on the drive if he catches it in the high post.

 

Hell, someone like Toni Kukoc fits that description better than most of those guys, and he was pretty marginal.

 

Outside shooting has definitely changed things, but it's not like your average point guard is 6'7" now.

[Jordan4life_2007]

How exactly is Dirk a guy that "puts it on the floor and creates"? I must have missed all these plays where he catches the ball on the wing and drives to the rim. A huge percentage of his shots are post-ups and catch-and-shoot jumpers. 2.6 assists per game doesn't exactly scream "creator" either. Bosh at least drives a little more (or more accurately, used to), but nowhere near of the frequency of your average "ball-handler". Hakeem was a better ball-handler than either of them, I still wouldn't call him a guy that "puts it on the floor and creates space."

 

I guess so. But he sure can do it. Not as much now. But in his prime? Hell yeah. Not that I pay attention to anything Michael Jordan says when it comes to evaluating talent (he's awful at it). But he said the only players today that could dominate in his era are LeBron, Kobe, Duncan and Dirk. Dirk has one of the most unique skill-sets for his size ever. Bosh? It's easy to pick on him now. But in his Raptor days, definitely. At the very least certainly more of a threat in that regard than the Horace Grant's, Charles Oakley's, and Dale Davis's of the world.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'll give you KG and Odom, but both of those guys aren't doing much of that anymore.

 

I'm obviously getting a completely different definition from that phrase than you are. Aldridge does basically zero ball-handling, I have no idea where you're going with that. It's similar for Dirk and Cousins. Gasol is a nice passer, but he's not exactly going to kill you on the drive if he catches it in the high post.

 

Hell, someone like Toni Kukoc fits that description better than most of those guys, and he was pretty marginal.

 

Outside shooting has definitely changed things, but it's not like your average point guard is 6'7" now.

 

These guys are threats now. You have to respect it. You didn't have to respect 90's bigs in that way outside of like 3 of 'em.

[Balta1701]

Lionel Hollins officially out as coach of the Grizz.

[Chisoxfn]

I'll give you KG and Odom, but both of those guys aren't doing much of that anymore.

 

I'm obviously getting a completely different definition from that phrase than you are. Aldridge does basically zero ball-handling, I have no idea where you're going with that. It's similar for Dirk and Cousins. Gasol is a nice passer, but he's not exactly going to kill you on the drive if he catches it in the high post.

 

Hell, someone like Toni Kukoc fits that description better than most of those guys, and he was pretty marginal.

 

Outside shooting has definitely changed things, but it's not like your average point guard is 6'7" now.

Garnett was playing in the mid 90's and was a superstar by 97.

[ZoomSlowik]

I guess so. But he sure can do it. Not as much now. But in his prime? Hell yeah. Not that I pay attention to anything Michael Jordan says when it comes to evaluating talent (he's awful at it). But he said the only players today that could dominate in his era are LeBron, Kobe, Duncan and Dirk. Dirk has one of the most unique skill-sets for his size ever. Bosh? It's easy to pick on him now. But in his Raptor days, definitely. At the very least certainly more of a threat in that regard than the Horace Grant's, Charles Oakley's, and Dale Davis's of the world.

 

Now you're moving the goalpost. I never said anything about Dirk's ability to hit shots or score. It's also easy to compare him to middle tier bigs that weren't know for offense and make him look good, I could say the same thing about Malone and Barkley vs guys like Chandler or Larry Sanders.

 

Whatever, basically arguing semantics.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Garnett was playing in the mid 90's and was a superstar by 97.

 

No way. All-star? Yes. Superstar came 3-4 years later.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Jordan4life

[Jake]

These guys are threats now. You have to respect it. You didn't have to respect 90's bigs in that way outside of like 3 of 'em.

 

Fortunately, you no longer have to respect bigs when they are near the basket

[southsider2k5]

No way. All-star? Yes. Superstar came 3-4 years later.

 

There are only 24 players put onto the All-Star team. If you are making the ASG, you are pretty much a superstar in the NBA.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Fortunately, you no longer have to respect bigs when they are near the basket

 

That's because the game has changed. Young bigs are being taught a different skill-set at younger levels and bringing it to the pros. Dirk is a tougher match-up than Charles Barkley was. Better player? No. But it's harder to defend a guy that can kill you inside and out vs a guy that's going to try back you down for 10 seconds.

[Jordan4life_2007]

There are only 24 players put onto the All-Star team. If you are making the ASG, you are pretty much a superstar in the NBA.

 

Sorry. Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, Brook Lopez and David Lee are not superstars.

[southsider2k5]

Sorry. Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, Brook Lopez and David Lee are not superstars.

 

But Kevin Garnett was.

[Steve9347]

Lionel Hollins officially out as coach of the Grizz.

They only surprisingly made it to the Western Conference Finals after trading their highest paid player. NBD.

[Kyyle23]

They only surprisingly made it to the Western Conference Finals after trading their highest paid player. NBD.

 

http://deadspin.com/what-the-hell-is-going...ching-511086286

 

Very Bizarre if it is because of Hollinger