2012-2013 NBA thread

[soxsoxsoxsox]

Joey Crawford officiating tonight. Heat have it in the bag.

 

[Quin]

 

Tim Duncan needs to come out in a Punisher outfit.

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm the best thing to ever happened to this thread. Without me, this thread is a bunch of middle-aged homers crying about referees every single day of the year.

 

 

 

Not even close. Putting your hands on the most physically gifted player the game has ever seen wouldn't mean a thing. He'd even be better against inferior, one dimensional athletes, and no zone defense.

 

 

 

 

C'mon, q. You weren't even a fetus when most of these guys were playing. Other than Jordan, LeBron trumps every player here without question. Mark Price? C'mon, dude. People like to make fun of Nash and his d. Who's Price checking today? lol.

 

I will respond to Zoom and Booqua (amazing that he actually came with something besides piggybacking zoom) in detail later when I'm sober.

 

Don't bother, I'm done with the 90's/2000's crap. Come on now, teams very rarely play an actual zone defense and it's not like he'd suddenly be playing guys from the local rec league. They didn't invent the slam dunk last year. There were quite a few good athletes in that era, which is easy to see thanks to youtube.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[ZoomSlowik]

I just posted NBA.com's All 90's team.

 

And I dunno if LeBron trumps Hakeem. And there would be years where Pippen, Hill, Barkley or Malone could be better at forward.

 

Thing is we don't know. But a lot of those guys would be the undisputed #2 in today's NBA, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that LeBron wouldn't easily be the second best player.

 

For fun, let's replace Larry Johnson with LeBron on those Hornets teams. Taken at the same time.

 

Is LeBron winning any titles?

 

Yeeeaaaahhhh, most of those guys aren't "undisputed" #2 over Durant. That guy is kinda good. J4L laughing off people because they're white is pretty ridiculous, but this goes to the other extreme. Obviously MJ and a couple of the bigs, but far from "a lot" of those guys. To me, "a lot" means at least half, and you just can't go that far.

 

As for the latter, I don't know about championships, but Larry Johnson wasn't exactly a world-beater, especially after his back injury. A few solid years, but not very good longevity, not a particularly diverse offensive game, defensive impact was iffy, streaky shooting, ect. He was closer to Blake Griffin than Lebron. Replacing a somewhat garden variety All-Star with a multi-time MVP makes a big difference. Alonzo Mourning is certainly better than anyone Lebron played with in Cleveland.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Boogua]

I will respond to Zoom and Booqua (amazing that he actually came with something besides piggybacking zoom) in detail later when I'm sober.

If you're going to respond to me can you please use some evidence. You give a lot of opinions, but nothing of substance to backup your arguments. I try to stay out of debates with you because it never really goes anywhere and everything is opinion with you.

 

Before you go on your "athletes are so much better today and are so much bigger and stronger"spiel, can you please remember that Chris Paul (

[Steve9347]

C'mon, q. You weren't even a fetus when most of these guys were playing. Other than Jordan, LeBron trumps every player here without question.

This is accurate. In my lifetime, LeBron is the 2nd best I've seen. He's a monster.

[ZoomSlowik]

I don't know which is a worse sign for the respective teams: the Spurs are trailing before Lebron scores a point or Wade tweaking something.

[MexSoxFan#1]

This is accurate. In my lifetime, LeBron is the 2nd best I've seen. He's a monster.

It's between Magic and LBJ for me but James gets the nod because of his defense.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Spurs just need to keep it close

[ZoomSlowik]

I don't get Miami's offense the last several possessions. They're running several Cole/Birdman pick-and-rolls with Lebron on the floor.

[lord chas]

what is neal doing

[ZoomSlowik]

Kind of scary that the Heat are up 10 with Lebron playing like crap, the Spurs hitting most of their 3's, and the Heat getting destroyed on the glass (actually, guess the Heat closed the gap a bit, but 12 offensive boards and several putbacks for the Spurs is still big).

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Boogua]

Kind of scary that the Heat are up 10 with Lebron playing like crap, the Spurs hitting most of their 3's, and the Heat getting destroyed on the glass.

Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are playing really, really bad. I was actually shocked that they were within striking distance for that long.

 

Combined 10-31 with 8 TOs.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Boogua

[ZoomSlowik]

Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili are playing really, really bad. I was actually shocked that they were within striking distance for that long.

 

Combined 10-31 with 8 TOs.

 

Before this Heat run, it was pretty ugly for both teams outside of the 3-point shooting. It's mostly the Heat role players blowing it open (Chalmers, Anderson, Allen and Miller). I guess Bosh has hit a few mid-range J's too, but Lebron and Wade have done little.

 

Edit- Lebron waking up the last few minutes hasn't hurt either.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Boogua]

Before this Heat run, it was pretty ugly for both teams outside of the 3-point shooting. It's mostly the Heat role players blowing it open (Chalmers, Anderson, Allen and Miller). I guess Bosh has hit a few mid-range J's too, but Lebron and Wade have done little.

The Heat role players have played a near perfect game. 8-12 from 3 (when you exclude Lebron's 0-2) and 1 turnover. The Spurs have really no shot if the Heat role players play like this. It was a must win for the heat and it was at home though. I'm looking forward to game 3.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't think stopping Shaq would have been the key to beating those Laker teams, anymore than it was in beating his Orlando teams (excluding the series when Jordan had just come back from baseball). They'd play hack-a-Shaq, and he'd get his points, but it would come down to other match-ups. I do agree that the Bulls still win.

Big difference...The Orlando teams didn't have Kobe Bryant.

[Chisoxfn]

That Magic team wasn't together nearly long enough to establish any kind of pattern. They were really only together for three seasons.

 

93-94 was Hardaway's rookie year and they lost in the first round. They didn't face the Bulls.

 

94-95 they added Horace Grant and beat the Bulls before getting swept by Hakeem/Drexler in the finals. Yes, Michael wasn't quite right yet, but he still put up 31-6-5 that postseason while shooting 48% from the floor. It's not like he pulled an '11 Finals Lebron. The bigger issue was that they didn't have Rodman yet so their frontcourt was pretty weak.

 

95-96 the Bulls smoked them, but Grant missed most of that series and Nick Anderson missed a game as well.

 

Shaq left for LA in 96 and Penny started getting hurt after that. Had that team been together longer or had better timing/luck, they might have been a juggernaut. They had two stars and three very solid role players. IMO, that's the best/most talented team I've seen that didn't win a ring.

I have to go with the Sacremento Kings & Portland Trailblazer teams which choked to the Lakers.

[Chisoxfn]

LMAO. Not ONE reply? This thread is awful.

I didn't need to. I disagree with you because i think this Heat team isn't very good. Bosh is playing like a sissy and Wade is just a shell of his former self. Lebron is ridiculous and would have been the #2 player in the league in the 90's, next to Michael, and to be frank, he has the talent to be better. Lebron's game would have worked beautifully in the 90's.

[Chisoxfn]

I just posted NBA.com's All 90's team.

 

And I dunno if LeBron trumps Hakeem. And there would be years where Pippen, Hill, Barkley or Malone could be better at forward.

 

Thing is we don't know. But a lot of those guys would be the undisputed #2 in today's NBA, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that LeBron wouldn't easily be the second best player.

 

For fun, let's replace Larry Johnson with LeBron on those Hornets teams. Taken at the same time.

 

Is LeBron winning any titles?

There is absolutely no way that Charles Barkley, Hill or Pippen would ever be ahead of LBJ on an all NBA team. That is just asinine. All are tremendous players but use your eyes people. Lebron would struggle? The dude is a freak athlete and a beast. I think he'd have been better because he'd get more angry from getting fouled a lot more.

[ZoomSlowik]

I have to go with the Sacremento Kings & Portland Trailblazer teams which choked to the Lakers.

 

The Kings are probably in the conversation. I like the late-90's Sonics too, though a better center would help their case considerably (not even a star-level player, just someone tougher inside). On pure talent, the Suns when they had Joe Johnson were pretty damn impressive as well, but they had defensive issues and didn't pay to keep him around.

 

Portland, I just can't put them on the same tier. If they had a prime Scottie and Sabonis, okay, but those guys were 34 and 35 respectively. I have a hard time calling a team "great" if their three leading scorers are Rasheed, Steve Smith at the tail end of his prime and Damon Stoudamire.

 

I side with Orlando though because you had two studs in their mid-20's. They just weren't together as a team long enough. We saw what Shaq did throughout his peak and Hardaway had a shot to be the best PG of the 90's. He averaged 21 a game his second and third year taking less than 15 shots, good for a TS% around 60. Anyone that reads this thread extensively knows that efficiency like that gets me all tingly downstairs. They had two lethal shooters on the wing too and we know what Grant could do as a role player. Who knows what happens if they don't run into the Bulls juggernaut in 95/96 and/or they had been able to keep a healthy Shaq/Penny duo together.

[ZoomSlowik]

There is absolutely no way that Charles Barkley, Hill or Pippen would ever be ahead of LBJ on an all NBA team. That is just asinine. All are tremendous players but use your eyes people. Lebron would struggle? The dude is a freak athlete and a beast. I think he'd have been better because he'd get more angry from getting fouled a lot more.

 

I wouldn't say "better". He'd still be a superstar, but we've seen what can happen if you're physical with him. Lebron is bigger and more athletic than everyone he plays now, but he occasionally goes through stretches where he can't get to the rim and basically stops trying to score. He starts becoming a passer and doesn't shoot it unless he's within 5 feet of the rim or it's a wide open jumper. See the 2011 Finals, the last two games and chunks of the Chicago and Indiana series (yeah, he still was quite good in those last two, especially against Indiana. I mean he does have 4 MVP's). Teams in the 90's packed the paint a lot more (watch Michael against the Pistons or Knicks sometime) and had big men a lot more imposing than Chandler and Hibbert. He'd likely have to lean on his jumper more, which is good but not great.

 

It's nitpicking to the highest degree since he'd still be at the top of the league with MJ (and arguably Hakeem/Shaq, but I hate big/small arguments), but I honestly think Durant's game would translate a little better offensively. Durant is a much better jumpshooter and teams in that era definitely had stretches where they conceeded the long jumper (Depending on how teams tried to guard him of course. Under the "Jordan Rules", he'd have issues because he can struggle to get open. If they guard him like Chris Mullin, he'd do well). Lebron would still be better overall because of his ball-handling and defensive versatility though.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Chisoxfn]

I wouldn't say "better". He'd still be a superstar, but we've seen what can happen if you're physical with him. Lebron is bigger and more athletic than everyone he plays now, but he occasionally goes through stretches where he can't get to the rim and basically stops trying to score. He starts becoming a passer and doesn't shoot it unless he's within 5 feet of the rim or it's a wide open jumper. See the 2011 Finals, the last two games and chunks of the Indiana series. Teams in the 90's packed the paint a lot more (watch Michael against the Pistons or Knicks sometime) and had big men a lot more imposing than Chandler and Hibbert. He'd likely have to lean on his jumper more, which is good but not great.

 

It's nitpicking to the highest degree since he'd still be at the top of the league with MJ (and arguably Hakeem/Shaq, but I hate big/small arguments), but I honestly think Durant's game would translate a little better offensively. Durant is a much better jumpshooter and teams in that era definitely had stretches where they conceeded the long jumper (Depending on how teams tried to guard him of course. Under the "Jordan Rules", he'd have issues because he can struggle to get open. If they guard him like Chris Mullin, he'd do well). Lebron would still be better overall because of his ball-handling and defensive versatility though.

I think if he consistently played in a tough league, he'd learn to get past the physical play (where as right now he rarely has to deal with it) cause he clearly has the physical strength to deal with it. Durant would be great in any era. Like LBJ, he is an elite player in any era.

[ZoomSlowik]

I think if he consistently played in a tough league, he'd learn to get past the physical play (where as right now he rarely has to deal with it) cause he clearly has the physical strength to deal with it. Durant would be great in any era. Like LBJ, he is an elite player in any era.

 

That gets into another argument entirely that is purely hypothetical, kind of like arguing that Larry Bird's 3-point production would improve if he'd played 10 years later in a league that embraced the 3 more (I don't remember his exact quote, but I think it was something like "I only shoot 3's if it'll get me more money", which is why he did the 3-point contests).

 

Both guys would still be extremely good, I want to make that clear.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ZoomSlowik

[Boogua]

I think if he consistently played in a tough league, he'd learn to get past the physical play (where as right now he rarely has to deal with it) cause he clearly has the physical strength to deal with it. Durant would be great in any era. Like LBJ, he is an elite player in any era.

Trying to project how a player's psyche would change seems a bit much.

[southsider2k5]

I didn't need to. I disagree with you because i think this Heat team isn't very good. Bosh is playing like a sissy and Wade is just a shell of his former self. Lebron is ridiculous and would have been the #2 player in the league in the 90's, next to Michael, and to be frank, he has the talent to be better. Lebron's game would have worked beautifully in the 90's.

 

There is no doubt in my mind LeBron is the second most dominant player I have ever seen in my lifetime. That is my usual standard when it comes to GOAT discussions. It isn't about comparisons to other players and eras, it is about what you can compare and that is what they did in their own time. Using that standard my top 3 (again that I have seen) would be Jordan, James, and Shaq.