2012-2013 NBA thread

[MexSoxFan#1]

I don't think it was that clear last year, especially in the finals. It's just worked out that way.

 

And LBJ is supposed to be the best player on the planet. People expected his career to play out like Bird, Magic, and Jordan's. None of those guys went to different teams. Dwight's career is somewhat playing out like Shaq's, except he looks worse right now. Shaq, despite having 4 rings and being the most dominant force in the NBA is usually lower on All time lists because of playing on so many teams IMO.

Unfortunatly for LBJ, he was drafted by a crap organization with no history of winning, Bird and Magic were fortunate enough to join franchises that teamed them up with HOFers. Jordan was also drafted by a team with no previous championship history but they drafted well and teamed MJ with great talent like Pippen and Grant, LBJ had Mo Williams as his second best player.

 

Shaq not considered top 10 All Time based on him switching teams multiple times is silly, his peak was as dominant as any GOAT players' peak, including MJ.

[Boogua]

Unfortunatly for LBJ, he was drafted by a crap organization with no history of winning, Bird and Magic were fortunate enough to join franchises that teamed them up with HOFers. Jordan was also drafted by a team with no previous championship history but they drafted well and teamed MJ with great talent like Pippen and Grant, LBJ had Mo Williams as his second best player.

 

Shaq not considered top 10 All Time based on him switching teams multiple times is silly, his peak was as dominant as any GOAT players' peak, including MJ.

I agree. It is unfortunate for LBJ. His legacy is still forever tarnished because he left. And those Cavs teams weren't as terrible as everyone made them out to be.

 

And yes, Magic joined hall of famers, but would McHale and Parrish both been hall of famers without Bird? Would Pippen have been a hall of famer without having to practice against the greatest player of all time everyday? He came out of Central Arkansas extremely raw.

 

And I never said Shaq wasn't considered top 10, but I often see him below Hakeem. If you look at rings and pure dominance Shaq is obviously > than Hakeem. I would have to think intangibles (including changing teams multiple times) and Hakeem leading lesser teams to championships come into play here.

[whitesoxfan99]

Bird and Magic were lucky enough to be drafted by teams with all time greats on it already though, and they both added to it. LBJ could have waited for that to happen but clearly he was a little short changed compared to them.

 

MJ however was drafted to dogs*** (somewhat) and pieces were added to him.

 

LeBron was there for 7 years and there was no indication they were ever going to acquire the pieces necessary to win a championship.

Edited July 18, 2012 by whitesoxfan99

[RockRaines]

Bird was drafted to a team that won 29 games. I don't know what all time greats were already on his team when he was drafted. Archibald and Cowens were way past their prime and were both on that 29 win team the year before.

3 years removed from a title and 2 from a playoff run. Maxwell was a damn good player on top of the older core like Archibald and Cowens. Admittedly most of the major players to help bird were brought in starting in 1980 (his second year) which is a MUCH better situation than LBJ was in.

[Boogua]

3 years removed from a title and 2 from a playoff run. Maxwell was a damn good player on top of the older core like Archibald and Cowens. Admittedly most of the major players to help bird were brought in starting in 1980 (his second year) which is a MUCH better situation than LBJ was in.

.... So the number of wins went like this. 54, then 44, then 32, and then 29. Yes, very strong core. Clearly on the upswing when Bird was brought in.

[RockRaines]

.... So the number of wins went like this. 54, then 44, then 32, and then 29. Yes, very strong core. Clearly on the upswing when Bird was brought in.

Not sure where in my post I said that. I said admittedly most of the help was brought in year two, in the exact same post you just quoted. LBJ didnt have that kind of help by year 7.

[MexSoxFan#1]

.... So the number of wins went like this. 54, then 44, then 32, and then 29. Yes, very strong core. Clearly on the upswing when Bird was brought in.

Bird being drafted by Red Auerbach/Celtics not equal to LBJ being drafted by the Cavs' who knows what's his name GM and later Danny Ferry.

Edited July 18, 2012 by MexSoxFan#1

[Steve9347]

Bleh, Darko Milicic sucks balls. How is his offense better if his TS% is lower than Asiks?

Slavbot says: He is from Serbia, your argument is invalid.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Steve9347

[Boogua]

Not sure where in my post I said that. I said admittedly most of the help was brought in year two, in the exact same post you just quoted. LBJ didnt have that kind of help by year 7.

They added Parrish who blew up after he came to the Celtics (probably nothing to do with Bird I'm sure). McHale was a rookie who averaged 10 points per game. He averaged 8.5 PPG in the playoffs. Nobody else was really added. They won the NBA championship.

 

I honestly don't even like the stance that I'm forced to take. I agree that Lebron wasn't provided with that much help. I just think it's a bit exaggerated. Mo Williams wasn't a terrible player and averaged 17 PPG before joining the Cavs. Jamison averaged around 20 PPG before going to the Cavs. Varajao was good defensively. Anthony Parker was a good shooter.

 

I don't think Pippen would have been the same player he became without Jordan. I don't think Parrish would have had the same career without Bird. I don't know who you could say that about with Lebron. He's just a ball dominant player that improves his teammates (although a great amount) by driving and dishing. It just seems like he doesn't hold his teammates accountable like Bird and Jordan.

 

 

And Lebron wasn't forced to leave Cleveland. Look at Olajuwan's Rockets. He went through like a 5+ year stretch where his second best player was Otis Thorpe. That didn't prevent him from ultimately winning two championships.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Boogua

[Kyyle23]

They added Parrish who blew up after he came to the Celtics (probably nothing to do with Bird I'm sure). McHale was a rookie who averaged 10 points per game. He averaged 8.5 PPG in the playoffs. Nobody else was really added. They won the NBA championship.

 

I honestly don't even like the stance that I'm forced to take. I agree that Lebron wasn't provided with that much help. I just think it's a bit exaggerated. Mo Williams wasn't a terrible player and averaged 17 PPG before joining the Cavs. Jamison averaged around 20 PPG before going to the Cavs. Varajao was good defensively. Anthony Parker was a good shooter.

 

I don't think Pippen would have been the same player he became without Jordan. I don't think Parrish would have had the same career without Bird. I don't know who you could say that about with Lebron. He's just a ball dominant player that improves his teammates (although a great amount) by driving and dishing. It just seems like he doesn't hold his teammates accountable like Bird and Jordan.

 

 

And Lebron wasn't forced to leave Cleveland. Look at Olajuwan's Rockets. He went through like a 5+ year stretch where his second best player was Otis Thorpe. That didn't prevent him from ultimately winning two championships.

 

No, but MJ taking his little gambling hiatus definitely helped Olajuwan win those titles. If MJ was still in the league, those titles wouldnt have left Chicago.

[ZoomSlowik]

They added Parrish who blew up after he came to the Celtics (probably nothing to do with Bird I'm sure). McHale was a rookie who averaged 10 points per game. He averaged 8.5 PPG in the playoffs. Nobody else was really added. They won the NBA championship.

 

I honestly don't even like the stance that I'm forced to take. I agree that Lebron wasn't provided with that much help. I just think it's a bit exaggerated. Mo Williams wasn't a terrible player and averaged 17 PPG before joining the Cavs. Jamison averaged around 20 PPG before going to the Cavs. Varajao was good defensively. Anthony Parker was a good shooter.

 

I don't think Pippen would have been the same player he became without Jordan. I don't think Parrish would have had the same career without Bird. I don't know who you could say that about with Lebron. He's just a ball dominant player that improves his teammates (although a great amount) by driving and dishing. It just seems like he doesn't hold his teammates accountable like Bird and Jordan.

 

 

And Lebron wasn't forced to leave Cleveland. Look at Olajuwan's Rockets. He went through like a 5+ year stretch where his second best player was Otis Thorpe. That didn't prevent him from ultimately winning two championships.

 

How exactly did Larry Bird help Robert Parrish when he was still on Golden State? Cause he was averaging 17-11 for two years before he ever became a Celtic.

 

The Cavs core was bad, that's why they sucked the second Lebron left. Jamison was a chucker that played huge minutes for bad to mediocre teams to pad his stats and was only there for half a season anyways. He was also a bad defender. Williams could shoot, but couldn't create shots for anyone else and was brutal whenever they really needed him. Varejao was alright as an energy guy when he was actually healthy. The only way that team was beating anyone good is if Lebron averaged 35 a game, and even that wasn't enough in the series against Orlando.

Edited July 18, 2012 by ZoomSlowik

[Boogua]

No, but MJ taking his little gambling hiatus definitely helped Olajuwan win those titles. If MJ was still in the league, those titles wouldnt have left Chicago.

I completely agree, although I've seen people argue otherwise. The Bulls had lots of trouble with the Rockets usually.

 

However, that still doesn't take away from the fact that Olajuwon won a championship (the second one he had a bit more help) with a terrible supporting cast.

[Boogua]

How exactly did Larry Bird help Robert Parrish when he was still on Golden State? Cause he was averaging 17-11 for two years before he ever became a Celtic.

 

The Cavs core was bad, that's why they sucked the second Lebron left. Jamison was a chucker that played huge minutes for bad to mediocre teams to pad his stats and was only there for half a season anyways. He was also a bad defender. Williams could shoot, but couldn't create shots for anyone else and was brutal whenever they really needed him. Varejao was alright as an energy guy when he was actually healthy. The only way that team was beating anyone good is if Lebron averaged 35 a game, and even that wasn't enough in the series against Orlando.

 

19.3, 17.2, 20.8, and 20.0 were his PER the years before he went to the Celtics. Year one with the Celtics he has a PER of 25.2. His offensive winshares were 0.2 lower in that year than the previous 4 years combined. He was just a much better player with the Celtics.

 

Oh, and feel free to look up how many games Jamison, Williams, and Varajao played in/ started the year after Lebron left. That whole roster basically missed time due to injury.

 

And again, for the umpteenth time I don't think the Cavs core was good at all. I just think people exaggerate how bad they were. They had homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs the last few years. AGAIN I agree that it was mostly due to Lebron, but one player doesn't get the best record in the NBA all on his own. I'm sorry.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Boogua

[SoxFan1]

Slavbot says: He is from Serbia, your argument is invalid.

I'm saying he can give you similar value for a fraction of the cost. He's better offensively and still good defensively.

[kjshoe04]

I wouldn't mind Darko.

[ZoomSlowik]

19.3, 17.2, 20.8, and 20.0 were his PER the years before he went to the Celtics. Year one with the Celtics he has a PER of 25.2. His offensive winshares were 0.2 lower in that year than the previous 4 years combined. He was just a much better player with the Celtics.

 

Oh, and feel free to look up how many games Jamison, Williams, and Varajao played in/ started the year after Lebron left. That whole roster basically missed time due to injury.

It's not like he was consistently a 25 PER player in Boston, that was his career high by several points. He had 7 seasons in his entire career where he cracked a 20 PER and 2 of them were on the Warriors.

 

Injuries weren't the reason they were horrible that year. They even added Ramon Sessions and JJ Hickson played a lot more and they were still brutal. Those two and Jamison were all healthy on that 1-36 stretch (think about that a second). Williams was actually traded for Baron Davis (who was less horrible than Williams), and Varejao still played almost 60 games (plus being injury prone is one of his major issues anyways). That team wasn't suddenly playoff caliber if they all played 82 games.

[Jake]

It's not like he was consistently a 25 PER player in Boston, that was his career high by several points. He had 7 seasons in his entire career where he cracked a 20 PER and 2 of them were on the Warriors.

 

Injuries weren't the reason they were horrible that year. They even added Ramon Sessions and JJ Hickson played a lot more and they were still brutal. Those two and Jamison were all healthy on that 1-36 stretch (think about that a second). Williams was actually traded for Baron Davis (who was less horrible than Williams), and Varejao still played almost 60 games (plus being injury prone is one of his major issues anyways). That team wasn't suddenly playoff caliber if they all played 82 games.

 

I feel like that whole team just quit believing when they lost LeBron.

 

The opposite effect of what this year's Bulls team did with all of the injuries before the playoffs. Then after the ACL injury, you saw them underperform as did the LeBron-less Cavs.

[ZoomSlowik]

I feel like that whole team just quit believing when they lost LeBron.

 

The opposite effect of what this year's Bulls team did with all of the injuries before the playoffs. Then after the ACL injury, you saw them underperform as did the LeBron-less Cavs.

 

At least offensively, they just didn't have the horses to pick up the slack. They surrounded Lebron with a bunch of catch-and-shoot guys. Without him, Williams and Jamison just don't have the talent to create the shots Lebron did and everyone suffers.

 

Defensively, yeah, lack of effort was probably a big factor. Lebron was their best defender, but he doesn't totally explain a 10 PPG drop-off. I suppose more offensive mistakes that led to points could also explain part of it.

[Felix]

Anyone that says Darko is good defensively has never watched him play. Either that or they're on a lot of crack, which isn't healthy for the body or mind.

[SoxFan1]

There is very little talent on the Bulls summer league team. Teague and Butler is pretty much it, and Leon Powe trying to work his way back into the league. Butler has looked really impressive on both ends. Teague has struggled. Yesterday it was shooting, today it's turnovers.

[RockRaines]

My boy Sullinger is having a pretty good summer so far, 14 and 8.

[RZZZA]

Butler looks really good though, his foul drawing rate is really high and he makes his free throws. His handles are significantly better than he showed last year, too. He just needs to work on being more aggressive and on getting some kind of mid range game.

[chw42]

Darko is world's better offensively than Asik. He can actually catch a ball, for starters.

 

Have you seen his shooting percentages in recent years?

[RZZZA]

Yeah thus whole "Asik can't catch a ball" thing has become really overstated...

[Felix]

Have you seen him play in recent years?