caulfield12 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 03:44 AM) I agree with everyone about Viciedo's potential. I stated it in my original post, and reiterated it in a a subsequent post. My point is very simple. As good as he will likely become, he is not that good yet. That is all that I'm arguing. He is simply not ready, at 23, to be a starting left fielder, on a contending team that is OBP challeged, like the Sox. That OBP gap has been fixed by Youkilis and DeAza, to an extent. And Rios playing up to his actual ability level. True, Alexei, Viciedo and AJ won't ever be great in that area, and Beckham's just so-so, but it's not a huge need right now. We're only a few runs behind the Yankees for 4th in the AL. When Dayan gets hot, he can carry a line-up for 2-3 weeks. Conor Jackson or Johnson (maybe) could barely carry the Charlotte line-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 27, 2012 -> 02:44 PM) I agree with everyone about Viciedo's potential. I stated it in my original post, and reiterated it in a a subsequent post. My point is very simple. As good as he will likely become, he is not that good yet. That is all that I'm arguing. He is simply not ready, at 23, to be a starting left fielder, on a contending team that is OBP challeged, like the Sox. And Dan Johnson is not ready to be anything on a contending or bad team. Otherwise, he wouldn't still be in the minors at 32. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 27, 2012 -> 02:44 PM) I agree with everyone about Viciedo's potential. I stated it in my original post, and reiterated it in a a subsequent post. My point is very simple. As good as he will likely become, he is not that good yet. That is all that I'm arguing. He is simply not ready, at 23, to be a starting left fielder, on a contending team that is OBP challeged, like the Sox. So why would you think Dan Johnson is? Because he is putting up big numbers at AAA again, after failing miserably at the major league level every single time since 2006? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Compromise on Johnson. Bring him up in September. We should have no problem with the 40 man roster. If he keeps hitting at current clip, he'll deserve the call up and might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Because Viciedo has done more at the major league level then Johnson ever has. Because Viciedo is more talented then Johnson. Because Viciedo's minor league numbers are better then Johnson's. Dan Johnson might be a solid bench player for the Sox, if they didn't already have 2 guys relegated to 1st base (Konerko/Dunn) + another guy who can play it (Youk). The Sox are going to bring quite a few other people up before they bring up Johnson (imo). For example, Connor Jackson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Conor Jackson is better than Dan Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Here is a portion of the article from the Knights' web page, regarding Johnson's selection to the All Star Game: "Johnson, 32, was elected to start at third base. Currently, Johnson is hitting .286 with 18 home runs and 57 RBIs. He is first in the IL in games played (79), second in home runs (18), second in RBIs (57), first in on-base percentage (.428), first in walks (65), and tied for fourth in runs scored (45). In 2010, Johnson participated in both the Triple-A All-Star Game and Home Run Derby. He won the Home Run Derby in Lehigh Valley and at the end of the season, after hitting .303 with 30 home runs and 95 RBIs for Durham, he was named the MVP of the International League." And, his numbers versus RHP are even more impressive. I just don't see how he would not put up better numbers vs RHP than Viciedo, for this season's Penant run. But apparently most of you think that he simply can't hit MLB pitching. I assumed that injuries, and his limited playing time accounted for his miserable MLB numbers in recent years, because he has certainly performed well at AAA, both at Durham and at Charlotte. What I like the most is his very high OBP. As I said, that is one of the more translatable characteristics. His .462 OBP, in 181 at bats, versus RHP is very impressive. And the low number of strike outs for a power hitter are also very good. A good eye is a good eye, at any level, and is a skill that Viciedo will hopefully learn, eventually. Edited June 28, 2012 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 27, 2012 -> 10:19 PM) Because Viciedo has done more at the major league level then Johnson ever has. Because Viciedo is more talented then Johnson. Because Viciedo's minor league numbers are better then Johnson's. Dan Johnson might be a solid bench player for the Sox, if they didn't already have 2 guys relegated to 1st base (Konerko/Dunn) + another guy who can play it (Youk). The Sox are going to bring quite a few other people up before they bring up Johnson (imo). For example, Connor Jackson. Your assertion that "Viciedo has done more at the Major League level then Johnson ever has", should not go unchallenged. In Johnson's last Major League season in which he had any meaningful playing time, he hit .236, but with a .349 OBP, to go along with 20 doubles and 18 home runs, in just 419 at bats. I'd take those numbers over Viciedo's current season, in a heartbeat. It should also be noted that Johnson put up those numbers in Oakland, which is not nearly the hitters park in which Viciedo is playing. All that said, I agree that "Tank" will eventually become a much better player than Johnson. I just don't think that he is there yet, and I'd really like to see the Sox put the best team on the field for this season because I think they have a legitimate shot at wnning it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 07:37 AM) Your assertion that "Viciedo has done more at the Major League level then Johnson ever has", should not go unchallenged. In Johnson's last Major League season in which he had any meaningful playing time, he hit .236, but with a .349 OBP, to go along with 20 doubles and 18 home runs, in just 419 at bats. I'd take those numbers over Viciedo's current season, in a heartbeat. It should also be noted that Johnson put up those numbers in Oakland, which is not nearly the hitters park in which Viciedo is playing. All that said, I agree that "Tank" will eventually become a much better player than Johnson. I just don't think that he is there yet, and I'd really like to see the Sox put the best team on the field for this season because I think they have a legitimate shot at wnning it all. That right there is the reason why Viciedo is playing with the Sox and Johnson is not. That and the fact that Dayan is only 23. As far as I'm concerned (and I believe many others here are concerned), he's doing fine right now. And more importantly he's getting that very valuable experience that he needs to become the hitter than many believe he can be. If he was hitting .170 with a handful of homeruns it might make sense to send him down. But he's not. He needs to develop more patience and improve his eye for the baseball, but playing down in AAA will not help him get there. I don't know if the Sox have a legitimate shot at winning it all. I do feel pretty confident about the division...at least being in the thick of it. Regardless, the Sox are playing for now and the future. Viciedo helps the team now and he will most likely help the team immensely in the future. I would not be willing to send a guy down or have him ride the bench 50% of the time because there's a 32 year old in AAA that has had very little success at the MLB level. That's just ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 07:18 AM) Here is a portion of the article from the Knights' web page, regarding Johnson's selection to the All Star Game: "Johnson, 32, was elected to start at third base. Currently, Johnson is hitting .286 with 18 home runs and 57 RBIs. He is first in the IL in games played (79), second in home runs (18), second in RBIs (57), first in on-base percentage (.428), first in walks (65), and tied for fourth in runs scored (45). In 2010, Johnson participated in both the Triple-A All-Star Game and Home Run Derby. He won the Home Run Derby in Lehigh Valley and at the end of the season, after hitting .303 with 30 home runs and 95 RBIs for Durham, he was named the MVP of the International League." And, his numbers versus RHP are even more impressive. I just don't see how he would not put up better numbers vs RHP than Viciedo, for this season's Penant run. But apparently most of you think that he simply can't hit MLB pitching. I assumed that injuries, and his limited playing time accounted for his miserable MLB numbers in recent years, because he has certainly performed well at AAA, both at Durham and at Charlotte. What I like the most is his very high OBP. As I said, that is one of the more translatable characteristics. His .462 OBP, in 181 at bats, versus RHP is very impressive. And the low number of strike outs for a power hitter are also very good. A good eye is a good eye, at any level, and is a skill that Viciedo will hopefully learn, eventually. Again, these are triple A numbers were are talking about. Johnson is repeating this for the 8th time. Also you said you would put Johnson into a platoon situation, and yet you blamed his poor numbers since 2007 on limited playing time. That is what Johnson is going to get with the Sox, so why would you expect any better numbers this time around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 08:37 AM) Your assertion that "Viciedo has done more at the Major League level then Johnson ever has", should not go unchallenged. In Johnson's last Major League season in which he had any meaningful playing time, he hit .236, but with a .349 OBP, to go along with 20 doubles and 18 home runs, in just 419 at bats. I'd take those numbers over Viciedo's current season, in a heartbeat. It should also be noted that Johnson put up those numbers in Oakland, which is not nearly the hitters park in which Viciedo is playing. All that said, I agree that "Tank" will eventually become a much better player than Johnson. I just don't think that he is there yet, and I'd really like to see the Sox put the best team on the field for this season because I think they have a legitimate shot at wnning it all. That year, Jake Peavy won the Cy Young, Jimmy Rollins won NL MVP, Mike Lowell was World Series MVP and buying houses was, like, the smrtest investment EVAR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 07:37 AM) Your assertion that "Viciedo has done more at the Major League level then Johnson ever has", should not go unchallenged. In Johnson's last Major League season in which he had any meaningful playing time, he hit .236, but with a .349 OBP, to go along with 20 doubles and 18 home runs, in just 419 at bats. I'd take those numbers over Viciedo's current season, in a heartbeat. It should also be noted that Johnson put up those numbers in Oakland, which is not nearly the hitters park in which Viciedo is playing. All that said, I agree that "Tank" will eventually become a much better player than Johnson. I just don't think that he is there yet, and I'd really like to see the Sox put the best team on the field for this season because I think they have a legitimate shot at wnning it all. That was also 2007. Some other players who had good years in 2007 include Magglio Ordonez, Grady Sizemore, Chone Figgins, Vlad Guerrero, Mike Lowell, Delmon Young, Jose Vidro, and Barry Bonds. All of whom can be easily had as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 07:04 AM) That year, Jake Peavy won the Cy Young, Jimmy Rollins won NL MVP, Mike Lowell was World Series MVP and buying houses was, like, the smrtest investment EVAR! Well said. Things change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Lillian @ Jun 27, 2012 -> 09:20 AM) Shouldn't these posts be in teal? Yes. At WSI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Good point ss2k5, let's get Barry Bonds! WHY ISN'T BARRY BONDS ON THIS BASEBALL TEAM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 June hasn't been kind to Viciedo (.162/.230/.250). If it weren't for the fact that the Sox are trying to keep his trade value up, he'd be in a platoon by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 10:40 AM) June hasn't been kind to Viciedo (.162/.230/.250). If it weren't for the fact that the Sox are trying to keep his trade value up, he'd be in a platoon by now. Good one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Viciedo has 1 great month and 2 bad months thus far this year. With how streaky he is at this point in his career, I am not yet convinced he will be a major contributor this September and October (if we get there). I do think he has huge potential though so you really need to keep playing him until he proves he can't contribute to a playoff-contending team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 12:52 PM) Viciedo has 1 great month and 2 bad months thus far this year. With how streaky he is at this point in his career, I am not yet convinced he will be a major contributor this September and October (if we get there). I do think he has huge potential though so you really need to keep playing him until he proves he can't contribute to a playoff-contending team. you just gotta believe in Viciedo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balfanman Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 7 pages on a 4A player, wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 you just gotta believe in Viciedo Mostly because there's no one capable of replacing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 06:52 PM) Viciedo has 1 great month and 2 bad months thus far this year. With how streaky he is at this point in his career, I am not yet convinced he will be a major contributor this September and October (if we get there). I do think he has huge potential though so you really need to keep playing him until he proves he can't contribute to a playoff-contending team. How are his walk totals? Anytime you have a guy who won't take a walk you'll get this type of streaky result. Some of the bombs he's hit like the line driver homers at the Cell to rightfield make you realize what a talented hitter he can be. I just can't see him ever becoming patient enough, though, to be an all star. The odds are really against hitters who hack away at almost every single pitch. Why is dan Johnson in the Sox system? If he has 18 hrs the Sox should trade him for scraps to somebody who will play the guy. Edited June 28, 2012 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 01:28 PM) How are his walk totals? Anytime you have a guy who won't take a walk you'll get this type of streaky result. Some of the bombs he's hit like the line driver homers at the Cell to rightfield make you realize what a talented hitter he can be. I just can't see him ever becoming patient enough, though, to be an all star. The odds are really against hitters who hack away at almost every single pitch. Why is dan Johnson in the Sox system? If he has 18 hrs the Sox should trade him for scraps to somebody who will play the guy. Viciedo's last year at AAA he had 45 walks in 119 games for a respectable .364 OBP vs just 11 walks the year before. It appears that longer he played the more comfortable and patient he became. I am hoping for this same kind of adjustment at the Major League level and I don't think it's too much of a stretch for it to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 28, 2012 -> 01:28 PM) Why is dan Johnson in the Sox system? If he has 18 hrs the Sox should trade him for scraps to somebody who will play the guy. Because there is nobody who will play him. He has 260 major league at-bats since 2007. There is a reason why the Sox were able to sign him to AAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I'm sure that you all understand that a high on base percentage is about much more than just taking walks. It's a matter of making pitchers have to throw strikes. A lack of plate discipline leads to pitchers exploiting the hitter's tendancy to swing at bad pitches. Edited June 28, 2012 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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