southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:01 AM) Why is that the best way to get results? You are offering absolutely zero evidence for this opinion. Maybe he would relax a bit if he weren't always hitting in such high-leverage spots? He's currently hitting behind two of the most patient hitters in baseball right now. He obviously has no speed, which is compounded by the fact that he isn't even running out of the box anymore, so he is a double-play machine and stranding runners in scoring position at an obscene rate. I'm not comfortable leaving him there because you say "leaving him in that spot until he puts it back together is simply the best way to get results." I know people hate to hear this, but there are other considerations at play here. We saw what happens to a team where there is more than what is going on with the playing field last year. It isn't just about Konerko here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:01 AM) Why is that the best way to get results? You are offering absolutely zero evidence for this opinion. Maybe he would relax a bit if he weren't always hitting in such high-leverage spots? He's currently hitting behind two of the most patient hitters in baseball right now. He obviously has no speed, which is compounded by the fact that he isn't even running out of the box anymore, so he is a double-play machine and stranding runners in scoring position at an obscene rate. I'm not comfortable leaving him there because you say "leaving him in that spot until he puts it back together is simply the best way to get results." On the bolded... go look at PK's stats the last few years. I didn't think that even needed to be cited, it is that obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:10 AM) On the bolded... go look at PK's stats the last few years. I didn't think that even needed to be cited, it is that obvious. I am not disputing PK is a main cog in our offense. In fact, I stated earlier that by moving him back you might get him right more quickly, due to him not putting so much pressure on himself. We're going to need him down the stretch. PK is notorious for the pressure he puts on himself. Getting him back in the game mentally is key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:09 AM) I know people hate to hear this, but there are other considerations at play here. We saw what happens to a team where there is more than what is going on with the playing field last year. It isn't just about Konerko here. So you think Alex and AJ would suffer from being moved up in the lineup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I don't how much longer they can afford to keep him at 4. My suggestion last night was move Rios to 2, where he's hit before and succeeded, and let Youkilis, Dunn and Konerko hit behind De Aza and Rios to get more RBI opportunities. I don't think that's going to offend anyone. Konerko knows he needs to start producing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:13 AM) I am not disputing PK is a main cog in our offense. In fact, I stated earlier that by moving him back you might get him right more quickly, due to him not putting so much pressure on himself. We're going to need him down the stretch. PK is notorious for the pressure he puts on himself. Getting him back in the game mentally is key. Wait... so are his feeling important or not? And how does moving him down help him mentally? You think a guy like Konerko, with his experience and career, is afraid of pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:14 AM) So you think Alex and AJ would suffer from being moved up in the lineup? They could. You could also poison the clubhouse by yanking a guy as highly respected as Konerko out of the spot he has earned with his 13 plus years on the team. The reason guys are playing better, to some extent, is because the players really seem to respect Robin. If you start dicking around the beloved Captain of the team, that could end. For example, look how well the Red Sox responded to dicking around Kevin Youkilis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:16 AM) Wait... so are his feeling important or not? And how does moving him down help him mentally? You think a guy like Konerko, with his experience and career, is afraid of pressure? I could care less if his feelings are hurt because we have to move him down because he is hurting the team. I don't really give a s*** who a player is if that is his attitude. Don't confuse hurt feelings with pressure to perform. If he can relax a little bit by hitting in lower-leverage situations, then by all means, put him in a position to succeed by doing so. If he really MUST hit in the 4th spot in order to get himself back to being productive, due to a confidence issue or something, then I guess I could possibly live with him there for a few more weeks. But I think PK is better than that. Edited July 17, 2012 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:16 AM) They could. You could also poison the clubhouse by yanking a guy as highly respected as Konerko out of the spot he has earned with his 13 plus years on the team. The reason guys are playing better, to some extent, is because the players really seem to respect Robin. If you start dicking around the beloved Captain of the team, that could end. For example, look how well the Red Sox responded to dicking around Kevin Youkilis. This is not analogous at all. I'm not suggesting benching him and bringing up some prospect to replace him. This is a move that would be based on trying to do what's best for the team. If the players can't respect a manager for doing that, based on moving a struggling player down in the lineup, then we've got some really selfish players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:21 AM) This is not analogous at all. I'm not suggesting benching him and bringing up some prospect to replace him. This is a move that would be based on trying to do what's best for the team. If the players can't respect a manager for doing that, based on moving a struggling player down in the lineup, then we've got some really selfish players. If the team doesn't believe it is for the better of the team, how is that selfish? I know you handwave away the results of the emotions that go into that, but the reality is, people work better in situations they are comfortable with. If you boss is an asshole, or an idiot, you probably aren't going to work as hard, or as productively, versus working for a guy who you have confidence in. If a company walks in and demotes the top guy on the totem poll because he had a bad month of sales, after 13 years of being the best, that isn't going to go over well with the rest of the group. Again, all you have to do is look at the difference between Adam Dunn and Alex Rios, this year versus last, to realize that things off of the field, can play just as large, as things like mechanical issues on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:25 AM) If the team doesn't believe it is for the better of the team, how is that selfish? I know you handwave away the results of the emotions that go into that, but the reality is, people work better in situations they are comfortable with. If you boss is an asshole, or an idiot, you probably aren't going to work as hard, or as productively, versus working for a guy who you have confidence in. If a company walks in and demotes the top guy on the totem poll because he had a bad month of sales, after 13 years of being the best, that isn't going to go over well with the rest of the group. Again, all you have to do is look at the difference between Adam Dunn and Alex Rios, this year versus last, to realize that things off of the field, can play just as large, as things like mechanical issues on the field. I agree with the general points you are making. I just don't think moving a guy down a few spots in the order is anywhere near as drastic as you are suggesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:28 AM) I agree with the general points you are making. I just don't think moving a guy down a few spots in the order is anywhere near as drastic as you are suggesting. My big concern is that this isn't benching Brent Morel or Orlando Hudson. This is the face of the franchise right now, and a lot of the kids on this team look up to Paul Konerko. I'm just saying it might not be an obvious solution to those who are in the trenches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:33 AM) My big concern is that this isn't benching Brent Morel or Orlando Hudson. This is the face of the franchise right now, and a lot of the kids on this team look up to Paul Konerko. I'm just saying it might not be an obvious solution to those who are in the trenches. Yeah, I'm just going to agree to disagree with you here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The point is there's a line somewhere that will be crossed where he needs to not be #4 anymore. To use an extreme example, fast forward 5 years and say he's still on the Sox, and his production is obviously dropping. Is he still at #4 because he's "Paul Konerko" and that's his spot and people look up to him? And you don't want to mess with chemistry and feelings? The emotion game can only go so far. Are we at that point yet I don't know. But the last month has been awful, and maybe it's injuries, but if this keeps up a few more weeks, it would be baseball stupid to keep that production in the #4 spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:46 AM) The point is there's a line somewhere that will be crossed where he needs to not be #4 anymore. To use an extreme example, fast forward 5 years and say he's still on the Sox, and his production is obviously dropping. Is he still at #4 because he's "Paul Konerko" and that's his spot and people look up to him? And you don't want to mess with chemistry and feelings? The emotion game can only go so far. Are we at that point yet I don't know. But the last month has been awful, and maybe it's injuries, but if this keeps up a few more weeks, it would be baseball stupid to keep that production in the #4 spot. So far the moves that have been made this year have given me faith that "baseball stupid" left the organization last year. I think Robin is likely to make the move at the right time, if it needs to be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:53 AM) So far the moves that have been made this year have given me faith that "baseball stupid" left the organization last year. I think Robin is likely to make the move at the right time, if it needs to be made. So if Robin made the move starting this weekend in Detroit, would you accept it as being "the right time."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Paulie is still a dangerous hitter, slump or not. He brings something to the plate every time he is up. Moving him back because of a slump could affect the way other teams scout him and handle the rest of teh White Sox hitters. It smacks as desperation. And for a first place team, that's not what you want to show the rest of your division. I know what you are saying, shack, but it is shortsighted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:55 AM) Paulie is still a dangerous hitter, slump or not. He brings something to the plate every time he is up. Moving him back because of a slump could affect the way other teams scout him and handle the rest of teh White Sox hitters. It smacks as desperation. And for a first place team, that's not what you want to show the rest of your division. I know what you are saying, shack, but it is shortsighted. I think it's long-sighted, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 03:55 PM) Paulie is still a dangerous hitter, slump or not. He brings something to the plate every time he is up. Moving him back because of a slump could affect the way other teams scout him and handle the rest of teh White Sox hitters. It smacks as desperation. And for a first place team, that's not what you want to show the rest of your division. I know what you are saying, shack, but it is shortsighted. This isn't just a week long slump, this is going on almost 2 months. With how often Youk and Dunn have got on base, it's created a ton of RBI chances for him and he has failed big time in those situations. If no other players on the team were performing well, then you keep him in the 4th spot. Putting Rios 2nd or 3rd and moving Dunn to 4th makes a lot of sense, especially by putting more of a gap between ADA and Dunn to hopefully avoid a lefty reliever being brought in to face 3 batters (ADA, Youk, Dunn). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:54 AM) So if Robin made the move starting this weekend in Detroit, would you accept it as being "the right time."? On the surface, yes. Though I would be watching to see what happens to specific players after a change was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:57 AM) I think it's long-sighted, actually. OK...so let's say Robin moves him to 6 and he continues to slump? Move him to 8? Look, you move him now and the rest of the AL will pounce on perceived weakness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:59 AM) OK...so let's say Robin moves him to 6 and he continues to slump? Move him to 8? Look, you move him now and the rest of the AL will pounce on perceived weakness. Especially if you take guys who have been hot, and they also flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 It's pretty hard to believe that Alexei Ramirez has knocked in more runs than Paulie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:02 AM) I thought he actually looked a bit better last night. He looked more confident taking pitches as if he was seeing the ball a bit better and he put a couple great swings on the ball. He's coming around. I agree with him looking better last night. I'd still like to see Rios (maybe Youkilis) moved to the 3 spot and Dunn and Konerko dropped. If for no other reason because Rios and Youkilis aren't going to be removed late in the game for a pinch-runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:59 AM) OK...so let's say Robin moves him to 6 and he continues to slump? Move him to 8? Look, you move him now and the rest of the AL will pounce on perceived weakness. Move him to 6 or 7. If he continues for a prolonged period, you've got bigger problems than his feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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