What to do about Santiago?

[caulfield12]

Send him back to the minors?

 

As a starter or reliever? At this point, no clue.

 

Believe he does need to just go out there and pitch again and rebuild his confidence.

Especially in any pitch he throws which is not a fastball. And decide whether the screwball's a viable pitch once and for all, if not, junk it.

So send him to Charlotte with Hernandez and put him in the rotation or send him out every other day, just let him rediscover what he had going last year and this past spring.

 

In Ventura's mind, Septimo has already passed him anyway. Having a 3rd lefty is luxury.

 

Guess it really doesn't matter in the end if they use Veal or Heath or Santos Rodriguez or Marinez or Bruney, but they seemingly need to try a different approach with him and see if something clicks.

 

It's hard for me to believe that 1) all of our backend relievers will be anything close to consistent, they're rookies and 2) that we might not need Santiago again before the end of the season.

 

 

I advocated in the other thread trading Thornton + prospect for Betances and then swinging another trade for the equivalent of a Darren Oliver or Jose Mijares. The trust level for pretty much everyone in the bullpen, including Matt, is about zero. It's almost to the point where Omogrosso is #2 right now until Crain comes back, although surely Robin will keep trotting Matt out there in the 8th inning as long as he's on the roster.

 

Thornton isn't bad. He's just not as a good as he used to be. And, with his salary, I'd rather get creative with his salary and use it on another area (no, not for Juan Pierre, although the bench could certainly stand for some improvement).

 

Flowers and Escobar and Hudson could all be upgraded...it wouldn't be the worst idea in the world to flip-flop Flowers and Phegley and give Tyler a month of playing every day to see if he can get his swing back, because it's a disaster right now playing once every 10 games.

 

We just can't have a bench of 3 non-entities if we want to go deep in the playoffs, it will get exposed quickly.

Edited July 19, 2012 by caulfield12

[Jake]

Hector should have started the season as a starter in AAA. It really boggles the mind that they did this to him -- the effect of going to the bullpen is that he's lost his offspeed pitches and very well may have lost his confidence as well. Unforunately, at this point he's nearly essential as one of the few "experienced" arms in the bullpen.

 

You can't trade Thornton right now. We've paid him most of that salary now anyway.

 

You could "upgrade" the backup catcher, but you likely won't see the backup catcher at all in a playoff setting. You won't see much of the bench either, basically just Escobar and Danks. I know everyone hates Hudson, but I still like him on the bench and I'm interested to see how he does at the plate now that he isn't learning a new defensive position.

 

Flowers in 27 PA against LHP: .269

Flowers in 45 PA against RHP: .077

 

Something to think about. Of course with those PA numbers, he's a 3 for 3 game away from mucking everything up

[LittleHurt05]

In Ventura's mind, Septimo has already passed him anyway. Having a 3rd lefty is luxury.

 

Even after Monday's performance?

[caulfield12]

Even after Monday's performance?

 

 

One would have to believe so.

 

However, one more disaster like that, not sure what Ventura will come up with.

 

Going by the Royals' series (especially the extra inning game) and the fact that Santiago was the first reliever in last night, you'd have to say he's fallen to the bottom of the pecking order for the time being.

[caulfield12]

Hector should have started the season as a starter in AAA. It really boggles the mind that they did this to him -- the effect of going to the bullpen is that he's lost his offspeed pitches and very well may have lost his confidence as well. Unforunately, at this point he's nearly essential as one of the few "experienced" arms in the bullpen.

 

You can't trade Thornton right now. We've paid him most of that salary now anyway.

 

You could "upgrade" the backup catcher, but you likely won't see the backup catcher at all in a playoff setting. You won't see much of the bench either, basically just Escobar and Danks. I know everyone hates Hudson, but I still like him on the bench and I'm interested to see how he does at the plate now that he isn't learning a new defensive position.

 

Flowers in 27 PA against LHP: .269

Flowers in 45 PA against RHP: .077

 

Something to think about. Of course with those PA numbers, he's a 3 for 3 game away from mucking everything up

 

 

Essentially, they owe him about $3 million more (including the $1 million buyout, would be shocked if they exercised the $6 million club option).

 

It's an interesting argument, there's pros and cons both ways with Matt, keeping him or dealing him.

 

It shouldn't be THAT hard to pick up an Oliver or Mijares type.

 

 

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

One would have to believe so.

 

However, one more disaster like that, not sure what Ventura will come up with.

 

Going by the Royals' series (especially the extra inning game) and the fact that Santiago was the first reliever in last night, you'd have to say he's fallen to the bottom of the pecking order for the time being.

 

Either he fell to the bottom of the pecking order, or they are trying to stretch him out again in middle relief. Which would be a very ass backwards way of doing things.

[Chisoxfn]

I really dont' get it. I watch Santiago and he has good stuff. He should be very good and he is the one guy that I'm extremely confused as to how Robin has handled him.

[Kyyle23]

I really dont' get it. I watch Santiago and he has good stuff. He should be very good and he is the one guy that I'm extremely confused as to how Robin has handled him.

 

He causes bad innings. Just like last night, out, out, beanball, double, single 2 runs. It is always with 2 outs, he just loses it. Im not confused as to how Robin uses him anymore because he has put Santiago into every conceivable relief situation and the result is almost always the same. If he needs to start, so be it, but he has been used as closer, setup, LOOGY, and long relief and in each instance he inevitably gives up two runs.

[southsider2k5]

He causes bad innings. Just like last night, out, out, beanball, double, single 2 runs. It is always with 2 outs, he just loses it. Im not confused as to how Robin uses him anymore because he has put Santiago into every conceivable relief situation and the result is almost always the same. If he needs to start, so be it, but he has been used as closer, setup, LOOGY, and long relief and in each instance he inevitably gives up two runs.

 

They really have tried to find a place for his stuff to flourish, but it hasn't. I don't know if it is a rookie thing, or if Hector is just one of those pitchers who just isn't as good as their stuff.

[elrockinMT]

I just kind of feel that this is what we get when you have 8-9 or 10 rookies on the pitching staff. They are learning and you have to take the good with the bad. Now Santiago has a great upside in my opinion, but was he pushed too quickly? I mean what did he have something like seven innings last season? But, we have seen other rookie pitchers do good and then look bad. How this situation developed with Santiago and with the others is quite amazing when you consider we didn't expect to go anywhere this year. But, we are in 1st place and that is due in no small way to how the rookies have performed.

Edited July 19, 2012 by elrockinMT

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I really dont' get it. I watch Santiago and he has good stuff. He should be very good and he is the one guy that I'm extremely confused as to how Robin has handled him.

 

To be honest, I think Robin has done a pretty poor job with the pitching staff for the last few weeks

Edited July 19, 2012 by ChiSox_Sonix

[The Ginger Kid]

I think he's a starter. But that's next year. This year we need him to be good out of the pen. He's learning, like the rest.

[caulfield12]

I think it was asking a lot for a kid to go all the way from A ball, to AA, starting....

 

Then he's a long reliever, then he's all of a sudden the closer.

 

From everything you read and hear, Don Cooper is the one who really loved Santiago and wanted to use him more frequently in the 2nd half last season but Ozzie resisted.

 

It doesn't seem like having him pitch only mop-up or in blowouts at the major league level will help as much as stretching him out again for the last month of the minor league season and see if they can get him going again for late August and September.

 

At any rate, of all the players on the roster, this situation has been the biggest enigma.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Hector needs to be a starter, somewhere.

[Wedge]

To be honest, I think Robin has done a pretty poor job with the pitching staff for the last few weeks

 

Considering the shape of the bullpen, is it possible to do a good job?

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Considering the shape of the bullpen, is it possible to do a good job?

 

Just off the top of my head, I felt he left Sale in an inning too long on multiple occasions (KC last week where it almost burned us, and the blowout when I feel he should have been taken out an inning earlier), Peavy has gone close to 120 picthes a couple times, Septimo the other day in Boston when he clearly was all over in a situation I couldn't understand why Thornton wasn't in.

 

He's in a tough spot with the rookies and all that, but in general I think the way he's handled the pitching has been average at best. I've just felt the past 2-3 weeks that he's made some odd choices on who to go to and/or how long to leave guys in. And i've noticed more recently than earlier in the year

[greg775]

I really dont' get it. I watch Santiago and he has good stuff. He should be very good and he is the one guy that I'm extremely confused as to how Robin has handled him.

 

I agree with the stuff part. I thought he had way better stuff than some of the eight relievers I saw pitch last Friday. I thought Santiago looked good. Robin and Coop see him every day and would be the experts on how they want to use him, obviously but he looked like he had good stuff.

[Wedge]

Just off the top of my head, I felt he left Sale in an inning too long on multiple occasions (KC last week where it almost burned us, and the blowout when I feel he should have been taken out an inning earlier), Peavy has gone close to 120 picthes a couple times

 

It's tough for me to agree with that. The pen has been pretty shakey. Ventura keeps Sale in in close games (1-2 runs either way). Peavy has had some extended outings after a tough bullpen day. The Sox have opted for increased outing length at the cost of reducing the number of outings. Ventura appears dynamic enough in his philosophy that he'd favor shorting outings, but increasing the number of outings (no rest days, strict 5 day rotation for Peavy or Sale) if the pen was better.

 

Sure, you hate to see those guys out there after 100 pitches, but the odds of bullpen failure go up if you're asking for 3 innings rather than 1 or 2 of relief.

 

Septimo the other day in Boston when he clearly was all over in a situation I couldn't understand why Thornton wasn't in.

 

To me that seems like an unfair criticism, particularly when you consider that Thornton gave up 3 runs the very next day against the same team.

 

He's in a tough spot with the rookies and all that, but in general I think the way he's handled the pitching has been average at best. I've just felt the past 2-3 weeks that he's made some odd choices on who to go to and/or how long to leave guys in. And i've noticed more recently than earlier in the year

 

More than anything, the pen is just a huge mess right now. Sure, you've got Jones, Thornton, and Reed who are all pretty solid, but realistically you can only trot those three guys out once or twice a week. A manager absolutely has to get some mileage out of the other arms in his bullpen and unfortunately it's just been unreliable all year.

[greg775]

Santiago must really stink to not get some of Thornton's innings of late.

Matt has been lighter fluid for a long time.

I'm not flaming Robin on this. He and Coop probably have reason to think Santiago is trash since they see him every day. But it is puzzling.

[LittleHurt05]

 

 

I just looked at his splits this year, and they are very weird.

 

Righties are only hitting .187 against him, but of the 14 hits, 5 are 2b, 6 are HRs, for a .781 OPS. (.187/.287/.493)

Lefties are hitting .304, but only one HR of 17 hits, for a .775 OPS. (.304/.418/.357)

 

 

 

 

[fathom]

I just looked at his splits this year, and they are very weird.

 

Righties are only hitting .187 against him, but of the 14 hits, 5 are 2b, 6 are HRs, for a .781 OPS. (.187/.287/.493)

Lefties are hitting .304, but only one HR of 17 hits, for a .775 OPS. (.304/.418/.357)

 

My observation as to why that would be is due to his fastball. He has pretty good control of his fastball, as he throws it up and in to righties and on the outer half to lefties. Obviously, it's a lot easier for righties to pull that ball over the fence.