The Pierre-Viciedo Debate

[caulfield12]

Still, why shouldn't we be picking on Beckham, too?

 

Because he's Harrelson's favorite?

 

Or DeAza, Dunn and AJ against lefties?

 

The point is, they need to gain faith in their ability to hit lefties and that will never happen by sitting. Dunn's done it this year much more frequency, DeAza had two clutch hits last night. AJ has also come through quite a few times in those situation against lefties this year.

 

We'll never know if both Dunn and Rios were lifted from the line-up and benched for the last 6-8 weeks of the 2011 season what would have happened with both of them, but I sincerely doubt either one of them would be playing as well as they are, especially Rios.

 

The flip side of this is that Tyler Flowers has completely regressed as a hitter because someone with a long swing like that (or Lillibridge) is going to be doomed playing once ever 10-15 days (3-5 plate appearances in a single game).

 

The only way for young players to learn is to play everyday. The worst thing we could do would be to make him a platoon player at age 23. It's just insane, especially when 65% of his plate appearances during the season come against righties.

Edited July 18, 2012 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

I'll say this much for you: you're persistent. But you have to face reality. The Sox will not be platooning Viciedo with the likes of Juan Pierre because he doesn't hit right-handers as well. And you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. In one breath you're saying Viciedo should be used in a trade for a starting pitcher because he's a good trade piece. Then you're saying he has to be benched 50% of the time to give the team a better chance at winning.

 

At this point in his career he is an offensive liability when there is a RH'er on the mound. Can that change over the course of time, sure

 

 

As crazy as it may sound to you, development of players is important for the future. And Viciedo is going to play a big part in the future of this team (provided he's not traded for a stud pitcher). He's not costing us games. He's got huge power, he's developing more patience, and his defense has been much better than probably any of us thought (did you see that catch last night!?). Yes, he needs to get better at hitting off right-handed pitching. But he's not going to get better by sitting on the bench watching Juan Pierre drop fly balls.

 

You're the type of prospect person that I do not understand. Thank goodness Morel hurt his back or we'd be 2 games out and you guys would be clamoring about how "we're still in it" and "he hasn't cost us any games", "his development is important."

 

In the White Sox current position, you play to win the game. Any edge you can get trumps player development. This franchise doesn't have enough World Series to fritter away this year's golden opportunity to of all things player development.

 

 

[caulfield12]

At this point in his career he is an offensive liability when there is a RH'er on the mound. Can that change over the course of time, sure

 

 

 

 

You're the type of prospect person that I do not understand. Thank goodness Morel hurt his back or we'd be 2 games out and you guys would be clamoring about how "we're still in it" and "he hasn't cost us any games", "his development is important."

 

In the White Sox current position, you play to win the game. Any edge you can get trumps player development. This franchise doesn't have enough World Series to fritter away this year's golden opportunity to of all things player development.

 

 

 

You're honestly going to compare Brent Morel/Youkilis to Juan Pierre/Dayan Viciedo??????????????????

 

You're being disingenuous.

 

Gordon Beckham has had 3 full years to prove himself and he's 26. His OPS is 17th/21st of qualifying 2B. His career batting average at USCF is close to .225.

 

Yet you continue to want to pick on Viciedo.

 

You also aren't for platooning DeAza, Dunn and AJ. Have you looked at their splits vs. LHP?

 

The White Sox have a better record against RHP than LHP. Why is that?

 

 

[Marty34]

You're honestly going to compare Brent Morel/Youkilis to Juan Pierre/Dayan Viciedo??????????????????

 

You're being disingenuous.

 

Gordon Beckham has had 3 full years to prove himself and he's 26. His OPS is 17th/21st of qualifying 2B. His career batting average at USCF is close to .225.

 

Yet you continue to want to pick on Viciedo.

 

You also aren't for platooning DeAza, Dunn and AJ. Have you looked at their splits vs. LHP?

 

The White Sox have a better record against RHP than LHP. Why is that?

 

Why do you defend Viciedo so adamantly?

[Eminor3rd]

The key here when evaluating giving up a guy like DV is remembering who you're getting back. If we had to giveup DV to get Greinke for this year and an extension, you just do it, and here's why: Greinke is a 29 year old top-10 SP in the MLB. Healthy, he's a 6-7 win pitcher over the next few years. Guys like DV have the potential to be 6-7 win guys, but they almost never are. Prospects are super important because it's impossible to build lasting success without cost-controlled talent, but when you're in the middle of a race to the postseason, you jump at the chance to give up a lottery ticket for the real thing.

 

Now, if we're talking about some veteran with a year or two left like Dempster, or if we're talking about a pure half season rental, you pull the reins back. But in a win-now situation, if you can get Greinke for the next few years, by trading a couple guys that have a 1% chance of being that valuable, you gotsta pull the trigger.

[southsider2k5]

Why do you defend Viciedo so adamantly?

 

Why do you hate on him so regularly? The kid is 23. He could still be in the minors, and no one would really think twice about it. He is putting up one of the best lines out there for a kid his age. Kids like Dayan aren't a dime a dozen.

[hogan873]

At this point in his career he is an offensive liability when there is a RH'er on the mound. Can that change over the course of time, sure

 

 

 

 

You're the type of prospect person that I do not understand. Thank goodness Morel hurt his back or we'd be 2 games out and you guys would be clamoring about how "we're still in it" and "he hasn't cost us any games", "his development is important."

 

In the White Sox current position, you play to win the game. Any edge you can get trumps player development. This franchise doesn't have enough World Series to fritter away this year's golden opportunity to of all things player development.

You can't compare Morel's disastrous start of the season with Viciedo's efforts. There was no doubt that Morel wasn't cutting it, and this is not his first full season. Viciedo's contributions have been fine thus far, despite your insistence to look at NOTHING but his splits against right-hand pitchers. Morel was costing us outs (a lot of them, against all pitchers). I never had a good feeling when he came to bat. Viciedo gives the team a chance every time he's at the plate, and he's performing well in the field.

 

Obviously this is a case of agreeing to disagree, but you don't throw away the future for the possibility of getting a few more hits off tight-hand pitchers.

[caulfield12]

Why do you defend Viciedo so adamantly?

 

Because you're only thinking short-term and not big picture here.

 

You're welcome to start negotiating with Zack's agent on an extension RIGHT NOW.

 

It would be a better use of your time, actually. If you can get him to sign for $80 million and 4 years, then, by all means, trade Viciedo, fine, whatever.

 

But he will get a 5-6 year contract and I'm not even convinced that kind of huge contract for Greinke is wise in the first place.

 

Otherwise, minor league pieces or someone from our bullpen.

 

What makes you think we can afford him if the Brewers, who have been a cash machine the last 2-3 seasons, can't?

[NorthSideSox72]

I have to think Marty is just pushing people's buttons here. No chance he actually believes that Pierre will maintain his OPS vs RHP that is 150 points higher than his career norms.

 

[hogan873]

Why do you defend Viciedo so adamantly?

That's a good question considering he shouldn't need to be defended. Especially when the alternatives brought up have been Dan Johnson and Juan Pierre.

[caulfield12]

The key here when evaluating giving up a guy like DV is remembering who you're getting back. If we had to giveup DV to get Greinke for this year and an extension, you just do it, and here's why: Greinke is a 29 year old top-10 SP in the MLB. Healthy, he's a 6-7 win pitcher over the next few years. Guys like DV have the potential to be 6-7 win guys, but they almost never are. Prospects are super important because it's impossible to build lasting success without cost-controlled talent, but when you're in the middle of a race to the postseason, you jump at the chance to give up a lottery ticket for the real thing.

 

Now, if we're talking about some veteran with a year or two left like Dempster, or if we're talking about a pure half season rental, you pull the reins back. But in a win-now situation, if you can get Greinke for the next few years, by trading a couple guys that have a 1% chance of being that valuable, you gotsta pull the trigger.

 

 

And there's a TON of concern right now about his health after those 3 consecutive starts...them pushing him back in what SHOULD be the most critical week of the season for the Brewers, playing against the Cardinals and another division rival.

 

RED FLAG. Or there's another psychological/social-anxiety issue cropping up for him with all this trade talk, no idea, just speculation all around him.

[caulfield12]

That's a good question considering he shouldn't need to be defended. Especially when the alternatives brought up have been Dan Johnson and Juan Pierre.

 

 

I would actually accept the idea of Dan Johnson putting up a 700-725 OPS before believing Juan Pierre could actually pull it off.

 

Matt Thornton wouldn't be able to enter any game with Juan playing the outfield, or the game would be over before he even threw a pitch.

[Eminor3rd]

Guys, I'm not a Viciedo hater, but I think you're overstating his contribution this year.

 

He's at a 98wRC+, which means that wehn you adjust for league and park, he's been a tick below average offensively for left fielders. This, combined with slightly negative defensive and baserunning ratings put him at 0.3 WAR. ZiPs projects him to end the year with 0.8 WAR -- an "average" MLB player usually sits around 2.0 WAR for a full year.

 

This is mostly driven by his sub-.300 OBP. Yes, he is 23 and has lots of upside and will probably improve, but so far this year, the only difference between Viciedo and Delmon Young has been some timely homeruns.

[Marty34]

Why do you hate on him so regularly? The kid is 23. He could still be in the minors, and no one would really think twice about it. He is putting up one of the best lines out there for a kid his age. Kids like Dayan aren't a dime a dozen.

 

He makes too many outs and a big revenue team like the Sox doesn't have to wait 2-3 years to develop a LF 'er.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Marty34

[ScottyDo]

He makes too many outs and a big revenue team like the Sox don't have to wait 2-3 years to develop a LF 'er.

 

...wait, what? Are you talking about signing a LF in free agency now or something? Man this is so off the rails.

[SOXOBAMA]

He makes too many outs and a big revenue team like the Sox don't have to wait 2-3 years to develop a LF 'er.

 

There's a guy in the Sox lineup that makes many outs and I would love to see him get traded this off season, that person being Adam Dunn.

 

I'd make Viciedo a DH and make a trade for a player like Pence.

[caulfield12]

Guys, I'm not a Viciedo hater, but I think you're overstating his contribution this year.

 

He's at a 98wRC+, which means that wehn you adjust for league and park, he's been a tick below average offensively for left fielders. This, combined with slightly negative defensive and baserunning ratings put him at 0.3 WAR. ZiPs projects him to end the year with 0.8 WAR -- an "average" MLB player usually sits around 2.0 WAR for a full year.

 

This is mostly driven by his sub-.300 OBP. Yes, he is 23 and has lots of upside and will probably improve, but so far this year, the only difference between Viciedo and Delmon Young has been some timely homeruns.

 

 

It's not what he hits, it's WHEN he hits.

 

Take away those two three run bombs against the Yankees and Royals and we're only 1 1/2 games ahead of the Tigers and in danger of being passed this weekend.

 

 

[caulfield12]

He makes too many outs and a big revenue team like the Sox doesn't have to wait 2-3 years to develop a LF 'er.

 

 

You mean like we've developed Gordon Beckham?

 

What is your position on Gordon Beckham's future with the White Sox, Marty?

[WHarris1]

While talking about certain metrics and how they translate in terms of average, above average, etc.

 

Viciedo has an ISO of .195 this year. .200 typically translates as "great". He is 23.

Edited July 18, 2012 by WHarris1

[Marty34]

You mean like we've developed Gordon Beckham?

 

What is your position on Gordon Beckham's future with the White Sox, Marty?

 

I like Beckham.

[SOXOBAMA]

I like Beckham.

 

Beckham makes many outs.. Thank god he plays a great D. I wouldn't mind to see him get traded this off season as well..

[southsider2k5]

I'd love to see Hunter Pence on the Sox. Phillies are open to trading him.

 

Also see the Marlins are listening to offers for Stanton and Ramirez.

 

The White Sox are not adding starting OF's. It would be a complete waste of resources. The team need another RH RP, and maybe a starting P, depending on where Danks is.

[ScottyDo]

It's not what he hits, it's WHEN he hits.

 

Take away those two three run bombs against the Yankees and Royals and we're only 1 1/2 games ahead of the Tigers and in danger of being passed this weekend.

In all fairness, a hitter having a better overall season might have had more than 2 game-winning hits by now, so that's not necessarily the best indicator.

 

I totally understand that Viciedo has not been amazing this year -- or, more precisely, has been half amazing, 1/4 awful and 1/4 decent -- but he couldn't buy a beer from Jewel not too long ago. Given his statistical profile and age, odds are he puts it together sometime within the next few years and neither I, nor many other people, want that occurrence to happen for another team...unless we get something back that will ALSO be producing for us years from now. This year, he's not been a hero too often (except that month when he single-handedly kept us in contention), but he also hasn't been a goat, so there shouldn't be urgency to dump him and still compete. And I'd give it a 70/30 shot that he performs VERY well in the second half, so what's the marginal benefit of replacing him?

 

Given Marty's "ALL WIN NOW!" meatball caveman philosophy, why not throw every prospect we have at a marginal improvement at 2b? We could give Colorado Viciedo, Nate Jones, Castro, Mitchell, Thompson, and Molina for Scutaro, and that'd help us win games because 2B would be performing better.

 

See, ultimately there's a limit.

[caulfield12]

I like Beckham.

 

 

So we're getting way below average offensive production from him, we've had 3 full seasons to watch him progress (or lack thereof)...

 

 

There are 17 2B ranked ahead of Beckham. Gordon is 18th. Only 3 are behind him, Ackley, J. Weeks and Andino.

 

1 Robinson Cano NYY 350 61 112 27 1 21 55 1 2 33 55 .320 .381 .583 .964

2 Aaron Hill ARI 333 41 100 21 5 12 41 7 2 27 51 .300 .355 .502 .857

3 Neil Walker PIT 328 47 99 21 0 7 44 7 4 36 75 .302 .370 .430 .799

4 Ian Kinsler TEX 377 65 104 26 3 10 43 15 6 34 50 .276 .341 .440 .781

5 Jason Kipnis CLE 344 53 95 10 3 11 51 20 3 39 60 .276 .352 .419 .771

6 Brandon Phillips CIN 323 49 93 15 1 10 50 5 0 18 42 .288 .331 .433 .765

7 Jose Altuve HOU 337 50 99 21 4 5 27 16 5 18 47 .294 .337 .424 .761

8 Omar Infante MIA 310 41 88 23 2 8 33 10 1 11 40 .284 .309 .448 .757

9 Dan Uggla ATL 303 55 67 15 0 12 46 1 2 58 101 .221 .353 .389 .743

10 Daniel Murphy NYM 328 34 96 25 2 3 43 6 1 20 43 .293 .331 .409 .740

 

RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

11 Dustin Pedroia BOS 305 41 81 19 2 6 33 6 3 26 40 .266 .326 .400 .726

12 Kelly Johnson TOR 312 42 75 9 2 10 37 10 1 43 94 .240 .331 .378 .709

13 Danny Espinosa WSH 321 44 77 22 2 7 26 14 4 27 100 .240 .311 .386 .697

14 Howard Kendrick LAA 309 34 86 13 2 5 32 6 5 17 66 .278 .315 .382 .697

15 Marco Scutaro COL 346 43 95 14 3 4 25 7 2 23 34 .275 .325 .367 .692

16 Darwin Barney CHC 305 38 80 18 2 4 26 6 0 18 29 .262 .306 .374 .679

17 Rickie Weeks MIL 315 38 63 17 2 9 33 6 0 48 107 .200 .315 .352 .668

 

And yet a 23 year old ALREADY providing average offensive production (OPS-wise, he's above, LF is around 730) is our biggest problem???

[Marty34]

So we're getting way below average offensive production from him, we've had 3 full seasons to watch him progress (or lack thereof)...

 

 

There are 17 2B ranked ahead of Beckham. Gordon is 18th. Only 3 are behind him, Ackley, J. Weeks and Andino.

 

1 Robinson Cano NYY 350 61 112 27 1 21 55 1 2 33 55 .320 .381 .583 .964

2 Aaron Hill ARI 333 41 100 21 5 12 41 7 2 27 51 .300 .355 .502 .857

3 Neil Walker PIT 328 47 99 21 0 7 44 7 4 36 75 .302 .370 .430 .799

4 Ian Kinsler TEX 377 65 104 26 3 10 43 15 6 34 50 .276 .341 .440 .781

5 Jason Kipnis CLE 344 53 95 10 3 11 51 20 3 39 60 .276 .352 .419 .771

6 Brandon Phillips CIN 323 49 93 15 1 10 50 5 0 18 42 .288 .331 .433 .765

7 Jose Altuve HOU 337 50 99 21 4 5 27 16 5 18 47 .294 .337 .424 .761

8 Omar Infante MIA 310 41 88 23 2 8 33 10 1 11 40 .284 .309 .448 .757

9 Dan Uggla ATL 303 55 67 15 0 12 46 1 2 58 101 .221 .353 .389 .743

10 Daniel Murphy NYM 328 34 96 25 2 3 43 6 1 20 43 .293 .331 .409 .740

 

RK PLAYER TEAM AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG OPS

11 Dustin Pedroia BOS 305 41 81 19 2 6 33 6 3 26 40 .266 .326 .400 .726

12 Kelly Johnson TOR 312 42 75 9 2 10 37 10 1 43 94 .240 .331 .378 .709

13 Danny Espinosa WSH 321 44 77 22 2 7 26 14 4 27 100 .240 .311 .386 .697

14 Howard Kendrick LAA 309 34 86 13 2 5 32 6 5 17 66 .278 .315 .382 .697

15 Marco Scutaro COL 346 43 95 14 3 4 25 7 2 23 34 .275 .325 .367 .692

16 Darwin Barney CHC 305 38 80 18 2 4 26 6 0 18 29 .262 .306 .374 .679

17 Rickie Weeks MIL 315 38 63 17 2 9 33 6 0 48 107 .200 .315 .352 .668

 

And yet a 23 year old ALREADY providing average offensive production (OPS-wise, he's above, LF is around 730) is our biggest problem???

 

I don't like Beckham. I just wanted to see your response.