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The Pierre-Viciedo Debate


Marty34

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The White Sox are not adding starting OF's. It would be a complete waste of resources. The team need another RH RP, and maybe a starting P, depending on where Danks is.

 

My idea for getting Pence is more for next season..

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:59 AM)
I don't like Beckham. I just wanted to see your response.

 

 

I told you what you should be doing with your time.

 

Offering Greinke's agent $80 million extension through 2016 as a condition of a trade to the White Sox and see if he'll bite.

 

He once said that USCF was his least favorite place to pitch or play, that he just didn't feel comfortable (maybe because of the mound), but with those comments out there, I would be shocked if we were able to sign him on an extension.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:36 AM)
He makes too many outs and a big revenue team like the Sox doesn't have to wait 2-3 years to develop a LF 'er.

 

lol. You just advocated for trading for Juan Pierre. He led MLB in outs made in 2010, and was 2nd in 2011. In fact Pierre holds the #10 spot in baseball history for outs made in a season.

 

Viciedo in 2012? Not even in the top 100.

 

http://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/player-stat/outs-made

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:01 AM)
I don't think Marty thinks Viciedo is a "problem."

Candidate for Juan Pierre Platoon Partner = Problem, in my book. But it's hard to tell, as I'm not certain what his point really is. I just know that he's been wanting to trade Viciedo at every opportunity for months.

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QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:00 AM)
My idea for getting Pence is more for next season..

 

 

We already did this in 2009 with Rios pushing Dye to the bench.

 

We don't want to mess with team chemistry in that fashion.

 

 

I guess you'd be trading Viciedo for Pence? Who would they possibly take for him, besides current major league talent? Especially if they keep Hamels, their entire focus will be on winning in 2013.

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QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:54 AM)
Given Marty's "ALL WIN NOW!" meatball caveman philosophy, why not throw every prospect we have at a marginal improvement at 2b? We could give Colorado Viciedo, Nate Jones, Castro, Mitchell, Thompson, and Molina for Scutaro, and that'd help us win games because 2B would be performing better.

 

See, ultimately there's a limit.

 

Your protecting the WORST farm system in MLB by most accounts. Keep Viciedo and what's around him in 2015? You prospect guys slay me.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:06 AM)
Your protecting the WORST farm system in MLB by most accounts. Keep Viciedo and what's around him in 2015? You prospect guys slay me.

 

I can't believe people are still using that marching line. At the end of the day, the farm systems results are speaking for themselves right now. BA might not like it, but the Sox farm system is paying off in spades. Myth Busted.

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QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:00 AM)
My idea for getting Pence is more for next season..

 

Right. The problem is the rotation needs to be better to win a World Series. I'd sooner trade Jordan Danks to gert Greinke, but that isn't likely to happen.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:40 AM)
It's not what he hits, it's WHEN he hits.

 

Take away those two three run bombs against the Yankees and Royals and we're only 1 1/2 games ahead of the Tigers and in danger of being passed this weekend.

 

Yes, I acknowledge this. But my point is that hit distribution is not predictive, it's just worked out well this year. There no reason to believe it will or won't work out the same way over the remainder of the season. That's what I mean by mentioning the timely homeruns

 

 

QUOTE (WHarris1 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:46 AM)
While talking about certain metrics and how they translate in terms of average, above average, etc.

 

Viciedo has an ISO of .195 this year. .200 typically translates as "great". He is 23.

 

wOBA and wRC+ account for his excellent power, and weigh it properly with the other factors, like his lack of ability to get on base. The most complete picture is with these linear weights-based metrics.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:10 AM)
I can't believe people are still using that marching line. At the end of the day, the farm systems results are speaking for themselves right now. BA might not like it, but the Sox farm system is paying off in spades. Myth Busted.

 

Project the Sox 2015 starting lineup and rotation from the players currently on their major league roster and in their system.

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QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:40 AM)
There's a guy in the Sox lineup that makes many outs and I would love to see him get traded this off season, that person being Adam Dunn.

 

I'd make Viciedo a DH and make a trade for a player like Pence.

 

Dunn's OBP of .362 is second on the team only to Konerko. Dunn makes fewer outs than ANYONE in the Sox lineup other than Konerko. Don't let the strikeout totals and the mass media hype machine fool you.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:06 AM)
Your protecting the WORST farm system in MLB by most accounts. Keep Viciedo and what's around him in 2015? You prospect guys slay me.

What's funny is I'm not really a prospect guy but you're adopting so extreme a position that I look like one. I'm generally in favor of trading unproven talent for proven talent, but I am more willing to take a look at the balance sheet. The better the prospect, the more likely you are to get burned by the trade, but since they're prospects their bust rates tend to be fairly high, and many trades for veterans therefore come with acceptable risk levels. With Viciedo, he's performing decently with flashes of greatness in MLB at a very young age, so his bust rate is almost nonexistent (barring injury which is equally likely to occur in the guy you're trading for). In fact, I'd hesitate to call him a prospect. The odds of him succeeding brilliantly in the future is relatively high, so you'd better get something good for years to come to offset those odds.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:15 AM)
Project the Sox 2015 starting lineup and rotation from the players currently on their major league roster and in their system.

You know you can't do that. So, the Sox will not make any trades or free agent signings between now and April, 2015? Come on.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 09:15 AM)
Project the Sox 2015 starting lineup and rotation from the players currently on their major league roster and in their system.

 

Take a projection from 2009 and see how that looks today. For the most part minor league system and projected MLB rosters are horses***, even 1 year in advance.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:15 AM)
Project the Sox 2015 starting lineup and rotation from the players currently on their major league roster and in their system.

 

Have fun in your own exercise in futility. If we would have done the same thing in the beginning of 2009, Your #2 starter, your closer, your DH, your starting CF, your starting RF, your starting LF, as well as the #4 and #5 starters, plus pretty much all of the bullpen would not have been in the organization.

 

Odds are most of the 2015 team isn't in the system yet.

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QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:18 AM)
What's funny is I'm not really a prospect guy but you're adopting so extreme a position that I look like one. I'm generally in favor of trading unproven talent for proven talent, but I am more willing to take a look at the balance sheet. The better the prospect, the more likely you are to get burned by the trade, but since they're prospects their bust rates tend to be fairly high, and many trades for veterans therefore come with acceptable risk levels. With Viciedo, he's performing decently with flashes of greatness in MLB at a very young age, so his bust rate is almost nonexistent (barring injury which is equally likely to occur in the guy you're trading for). In fact, I'd hesitate to call him a prospect. The odds of him succeeding brilliantly in the future is relatively high, so you'd better get something good for years to come to offset those odds.

 

Your premise is correct here: that Viciedo has a higher floor than many prospects because he's shown some level of competency at the ML level. But I think you're taking it way too far when you say his bust rate is almost non-existent. As I said in more detail a few posts back, he's put up 0.3 WAR this year and on pace for a well below average ML season, and his Achilles' Heel is his plate discipline, which is something that is definitely NOT a sure thing for him to develop. He may simply not be able to recognize pitches well enough to realize his potential. If he doesn't do that, we have Delmon Young. If he doesn't improve significantly, he's going to have a pretty disappointing career.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:34 AM)
Your premise is correct here: that Viciedo has a higher floor than many prospects because he's shown some level of competency at the ML level. But I think you're taking it way too far when you say his bust rate is almost non-existent. As I said in more detail a few posts back, he's put up 0.3 WAR this year and on pace for a well below average ML season, and his Achilles' Heel is his plate discipline, which is something that is definitely NOT a sure thing for him to develop. He may simply not be able to recognize pitches well enough to realize his potential. If he doesn't do that, we have Delmon Young. If he doesn't improve significantly, he's going to have a pretty disappointing career.

You're right, I overstated that. His bust rate will look negligible compared to players who haven't sniffed the majors, though. Doesn't mean he can't bust, you're right. And while another Delmon Young isn't something I have my fingers crossed for, it's a pretty decent floor for a young guy.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:25 AM)
Have fun in your own exercise in futility. If we would have done the same thing in the beginning of 2009, Your #2 starter, your closer, your DH, your starting CF, your starting RF, your starting LF, as well as the #4 and #5 starters, plus pretty much all of the bullpen would not have been in the organization.

Odds are most of the 2015 team isn't in the system yet.

 

Precisely my point.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:52 AM)
Which has nothing to do with trading Viciedo, especially to advocate for Juan Pierre, when his faults are worse than what you are wanting to get rid of Dayan for.

 

Pierre has been getting on base against RH'ers in 2012 much better than Viciedo. At the very least, he'd be a cheap insurance policy.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:16 AM)
Pierre has been getting on base against RH'ers in 2012 much better than Viciedo. At the very least, he'd be a cheap insurance policy.

 

 

And what place are the Phillies in the standings again using Juan Pierre prominently in their line-up?

 

 

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:16 AM)
Pierre has been getting on base against RH'ers in 2012 much better than Viciedo. At the very least, he'd be a cheap insurance policy.

 

No, at very least he would cost us a ridiculous amount of outs, like he did when he was here last time. At most, he still is someone who doesn't really help the team.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:16 AM)
Pierre has been getting on base against RH'ers in 2012 much better than Viciedo. At the very least, he'd be a cheap insurance policy.

 

Juan Pierre sucks and if you think he has value to this team...well I guess everyone has an opinion.

 

The difference in NL and AL is why JP appears to have value. He has no value.

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