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The Pierre-Viciedo Debate


Marty34

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:31 AM)
No, at very least he would cost us a ridiculous amount of outs, like he did when he was here last time. At most, he still is someone who doesn't really help the team.

 

Less outs than Viciedo though.

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QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:38 AM)
That OBP difference is countered by Viciedo having more HR, more RBI, and having a much better arm in LF. Viciedo is also a young talent who is improving and you're risking stunting his growth by platooning him.

 

Stunt his growth all you want because getting a guy with a .385 obp when you are in a pennant race is worth it

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:43 PM)
Stunt his growth all you want because getting a guy with a .385 obp when you are in a pennant race is worth it

Marty, if you were to be totally honest with us (tall order), would you say you truly believe Juan Pierre will continue to perform at a level at or near his current 2012 pace? If so, I'll vehemently register my disagreement but stop arguing.

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QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:46 AM)
Marty, if you were to be totally honest with us (tall order), would you say you truly believe Juan Pierre will continue to perform at a level at or near his current 2012 pace? If so, I'll vehemently register my disagreement but stop arguing.

 

I think he will continue to get on base at a far greater clip than Viciedo against RH'ers for the rest of the year.

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QUOTE (RZZZA @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:46 AM)
Trading offense for pitching seems counterproductive to me...its like plugging one hole and creating another, isn't it?

 

We cant afford to lose anybody from our line up now

 

Someone gets it :)

 

Anyways, I don't think Pierre sucks. In general, he's still a nice player. Viciedo is worth a LOT more runs than Pierre though. If ADA tore his ACL or something, I'd say sure go ahead and get Pierre. That's not what's going on though. Viciedo is a ton better and we may get to see Dayan hit 40+ HR's in a White Sox uniform. Hell, as pointed out earlier in this thread, he's another hot streak away from threatening 40 HR this year. You can see him improving already with his walk rate going up and on a related note, pitchers are afraid of him.

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Perhaps you missed this the first time.

 

 

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:38 AM)
Less outs than Viciedo though.

 

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:02 AM)
lol. You just advocated for trading for Juan Pierre. He led MLB in outs made in 2010, and was 2nd in 2011. In fact Pierre holds the #10 spot in baseball history for outs made in a season.

 

Viciedo in 2012? Not even in the top 100.

 

http://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/player-stat/outs-made

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:16 PM)
Who has more outs versus right-handed pitchers in 2012 Pierre or Viciedo?

 

 

I just read through what I missed in the thread. This is still going on? Seriously? Marty, why is this still going on? Pierre is not coming back to town. Who cares which guy has more outs vs RH pitching? Juan Pierre sucks at baseball. I will give you that Viciedo is bad vs RHP but at least there is the chance that DV will hit for power off of RH pitching. This whole thread is nauseating though because of the Pierre discussion. My god just end it already.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:16 PM)
Who has more outs versus right-handed pitchers in 2012 Pierre or Viciedo?

 

If I could isolate it, I would.

 

So we are to throw out his career as one of the leading out makers in the history of major league baseball, in favor of the small sample size of Pierre's platoonish record for 2012, while ignoring that Viciedo is incredibly highly thought of at age 23, and putting up numbers only surpassed by Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, Jason Heyward, and Mike Stanton for OFs 24 and under? Viciedo has 2 less homers this year, than Pierre does in his entire career.

 

That is some selective hearing right there.

 

On a side note, it is pretty interesting that yet another vet in Pierre leaves Guillen's team and has WAY better numbers than he ever did while playing for Ozzie.

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QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:59 AM)
Someone gets it :)

 

Anyways, I don't think Pierre sucks. In general, he's still a nice player. Viciedo is worth a LOT more runs than Pierre though. If ADA tore his ACL or something, I'd say sure go ahead and get Pierre. That's not what's going on though. Viciedo is a ton better and we may get to see Dayan hit 40+ HR's in a White Sox uniform. Hell, as pointed out earlier in this thread, he's another hot streak away from threatening 40 HR this year. You can see him improving already with his walk rate going up and on a related note, pitchers are afraid of him.

and put pierre in cf? :o id take my chances with danks everyday over pierre

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QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:24 PM)
I just read through what I missed in the thread. This is still going on? Seriously? Marty, why is this still going on? Pierre is not coming back to town. Who cares which guy has more outs vs RH pitching? Juan Pierre sucks at baseball. I will give you that Viciedo is bad vs RHP but at least there is the chance that DV will hit for power off of RH pitching. This whole thread is nauseating though because of the Pierre discussion. My god just end it already.

 

Pierre sucks at baseball. Still an upgrade over Viciedo against RH'ers. The reason this is still going on is because people are defending Viciedo instead of saying yeah, he struggles mightily against RH'ers at this point in his career.

 

Can't say anything remotely bad about Viciedo.

Edited by Marty34
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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:39 PM)
Pierre sucks at baseball. Still an upgrade over Viciedo against RH'ers. The reason this is still going on is because people are defending Viciedo instead of saying yeah, he struggles mightily against RH'ers at this point in his career.

 

Can't say anything remotely bad about Viciedo.

I don't think anyone has argued that Viciedo struggles against right-handers. We all know that. The argument is that you do not platoon a guy...you know what forget it. It's just not worth it anymore.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 11:52 AM)
I think he will continue to get on base at a far greater clip than Viciedo against RH'ers for the rest of the year.

You're a f***ing joke if you're honestly suggesting Pierre over Viciedo in any capacity. Pierre put up .621 and .642 OPSs against RHP the last two years. Unless you think he's suddenly found the fountain of youth, he's going to regress significantly in the 2nd half. On the other hand, Viciedo has a decent chance to improve in the 2nd half. There is no debate here.

 

Had you chosen a respectable player for your platoon idea, people would have been more willing to listen, but most would have ultimately disagreed. However, you're clearly trolling and went with the idea that would cause the most anger on this board.

 

 

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:54 PM)
You're a f***ing joke if you're honestly suggesting Pierre over Viciedo in any capacity. Pierre put up .621 and .642 OPSs against RHP the last two years. Unless you think he's suddenly found the fountain of youth, he's going to regress significantly in the 2nd half. On the other hand, Viciedo has a decent chance to improve in the 2nd half. There is no debate here.

 

Had you chosen a respectable player for your platoon idea, people would have been more willing to listen, but most would have ultimately disagreed. However, you're clearly trolling and went with the idea that would cause the most anger on this board.

 

Stop couching insults. Now.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:54 PM)
You're a f***ing joke if you're honestly suggesting Pierre over Viciedo in any capacity. Pierre put up .621 and .642 OPSs against RHP the last two years. Unless you think he's suddenly found the fountain of youth, he's going to regress significantly in the 2nd half. On the other hand, Viciedo has a decent chance to improve in the 2nd half. There is no debate here.

 

Had you chosen a respectable player for your platoon idea, people would have been more willing to listen, but most would have ultimately disagreed. However, you're clearly trolling and went with the idea that would cause the most anger on this board.

 

A respectable player is going to cost a respectable return. Pierre might come cheaply which was the whole point of the idea. A cheap insurance policy.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 12:03 PM)
A respectable player is going to cost a respectable return. Pierre might come cheaply which was the whole point of the idea. A cheap insurance policy.

 

 

Now he's an insurance policy?

 

You keep advocating he get 65-70% of the at-bats in LF and come up to the plate more than anyone but DeAza. Heck, you probably think he's a better leadoff hitter than Alejandro because of DeAza's 15/23 stolen base success rate, which is quite similar to Juan's in 2010 and 2011.

 

 

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 01:08 PM)
Now he's an insurance policy?

 

You keep advocating he get 65-70% of the at-bats in LF and come up to the plate more than anyone but DeAza. Heck, you probably think he's a better leadoff hitter than Alejandro because of DeAza's 15/23 stolen base success rate, which is quite similar to Juan's in 2010 and 2011.

 

Why do you make stuff up?

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 01:03 PM)
A respectable player is going to cost a respectable return. Pierre might come cheaply which was the whole point of the idea. A cheap insurance policy.

Viciedo's OPS against RHP this year is .673. That's higher than the .621 and .642 OPSs Pierre had in the 1,000 ABs against RHP prior to this year. I want you to tell me why Pierre is doing so much better this year against RHP and why I should expect his 2nd performance against RHP (for us) to be better than what he did in 2011 & 2010. If you can provide logical reasons, I will actually apologize for my comment earlier. Otherwise, you are completely ignoring his recent trends and overlooking what should be obvious regression for him in the 2nd half.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 01:16 PM)
Viciedo's OPS against RHP this year is .673. That's higher than the .621 and .642 OPSs Pierre had in the 1,000 ABs against RHP prior to this year. I want you to tell me why Pierre is doing so much better this year against RHP and why I should expect his 2nd performance against RHP (for us) to be better than what he did in 2011 & 2010. If you can provide logical reasons, I will actually apologize for my comment earlier. Otherwise, you are completely ignoring his recent trends and overlooking what should be obvious regression for him in the 2nd half.

 

It takes a big man to offer a conditional apology.

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