The Pierre-Viciedo Debate

[southsider2k5]

As was pointed on yesterday many posters on here didn't want Youkilis. Being contrary to Soxtalk opinion probably means you're right.

 

To clarify here, most Soxtalk posters didn't want Youk at the high prices that were being bandied about in the early days, when things like Matt Thornton plus Gavin Floyd were being proposed by certain Tribune columnists who have since forgotten about that...

 

I don't remember anyone saying they didn't want Youk plus cash for Stewart and Lillibridge. Some had reservations about how healthy Youkilis actually was, myself included, but no one said they flat out hated the trade, and didn't want him at all.

 

Picking out part of the discussion and ignoring the end result?

[Princess Dye]

The Sox will look to make upgrades to try to take themselves to being an elite playoff talent -- but that won't come at the expense of Viciedo. He is the experiment that has to be just good enough to be worth it. And crudely stated, the reason for that is the playoffs are a chaotic thing, and we're either going to be the third best team in the AL making a crazy run to success, or we won't.

[Marty34]

The reason was because Youkilis was trending badly away from his normal stats and people thought he was done. He isnt. Pierre is way exceeding his normal stats, but will never provide the power and RBIs that Viciedo will provide.

 

Whatever the reason, many posters on Soxtalk were wrong about Youkilis. RBI's really? By the same token Viciedo will not score the number of runs Pierre will.

 

And even though Viciedo isnt exactly brilliant in the outfield, he hasnt been really bad either, and his arm has saved more than a few runs.

 

Pierre's arm is a problem, no doubt, but he can go from 1st to third or score from first on a double easier than Viciedo. Not to mention steal a base. His baserunning advantage over Viciedo makes up for his arm, probably more than makes up really.

 

 

Pierre makes more outs, do his outs count less because he gets on base 1 more time out of 10 than Viciedo? Will that 1 out of 10 actually be worth it in a platoon situation? Very doubtful

 

that'10 times every 100 AB's, yes I think that makes a difference when you are in a tight race. Not only that, but you'd have Viciedo available off the bench late in the game as a lefty masher. And if you pinch run for Dunn or Konerko and their spot in the order comes up again you have Viciedo available as a power threat.

 

One of the things about getting another OBP guy in the lineup is it could allow for Youkillis to move to 3 spot which means you won't have to take your 3 hitter out for a pinch-runner.

[Balta1701]

To clarify here, most Soxtalk posters didn't want Youk at the high prices that were being bandied about in the early days, when things like Matt Thornton plus Gavin Floyd were being proposed by certain Tribune columnists who have since forgotten about that...

 

I don't remember anyone saying they didn't want Youk plus cash for Stewart and Lillibridge. Some had reservations about how healthy Youkilis actually was, myself included, but no one said they flat out hated the trade, and didn't want him at all.

 

Picking out part of the discussion and ignoring the end result?

 

 

Whatever the reason, many posters on Soxtalk were wrong about Youkilis.

 

PRetty much exactly.

[Kyyle23]

Whatever the reason, many posters on Soxtalk were wrong about Youkilis. RBI's really? By the same token Viciedo will not score the number of runs Pierre will.

 

 

 

Pierre's arm is a problem, no doubt, but he can go from 1st to third or score from first on a double easier than Viciedo. Not to mention steal a base. His baserunning advantage over Viciedo makes up for his arm, probably more than makes up really.

 

 

 

 

that'10 times every 100 AB's, yes I think that makes a difference when you are in a tight race. Not only that, but you'd have Viciedo available off the bench late in the game as a lefty masher. And if you pinch run for Dunn or Konerko and their spot in the order comes up again you have Viciedo available as a power threat.

 

One of the things about getting another OBP guy in the lineup is it could allow for Youkillis to move to 3 spot which means you won't have to take your 3 hitter out for a pinch-runner.

 

Except viciedo has scored the same amount of runs out of the 7 spot than Pierre has scored leading off. And their amount of at bats are similar despite Pierre platooning. Really, Pierre isn't happening no matter how much you argue with all of us, and it hasnt been proven why a declining player is so much more valuable than a young power hitter.

 

Just leave it at you want viciedo as a trade chip, the Pierre talk is really not proving anything

[caulfield12]

Whatever the reason, many posters on Soxtalk were wrong about Youkilis. RBI's really? By the same token Viciedo will not score the number of runs Pierre will.

 

 

 

Pierre's arm is a problem, no doubt, but he can go from 1st to third or score from first on a double easier than Viciedo. Not to mention steal a base. His baserunning advantage over Viciedo makes up for his arm, probably more than makes up really.

 

 

 

 

that'10 times every 100 AB's, yes I think that makes a difference when you are in a tight race. Not only that, but you'd have Viciedo available off the bench late in the game as a lefty masher. And if you pinch run for Dunn or Konerko and their spot in the order comes up again you have Viciedo available as a power threat.

 

One of the things about getting another OBP guy in the lineup is it could allow for Youkillis to move to 3 spot which means you won't have to take your 3 hitter out for a pinch-runner.

 

 

First of all, it's not going to be a 100 point spread, that was just thrown out there as a hypothetical which you ran with, knowing it was highly unlikely that Pierre was ever going to come close to a 400 OBP. If he's capable of doing that, why didn't he do that in 2010 and 2011 when we needed it and he was younger??

 

Another reason Viciedo can't score is because Beckham and Ramirez sucked or have sucked for large stretches of the first half.

 

There's a big difference when you have Youkilis, Dunn, Konerko, Rios and AJ behind you to drive a run in.

 

Next, Viciedo doesn't have the type of swing that's conducive to just coming off the bench occasionally. To get his good and bad, the upside of his streakiness can't be expected if you play him sporadically. He'll end up with a swing like Tyler Flowers or Brent Lillibridge.

 

Juan Pierre is NO LONGER AN EFFECTIVE BASERUNNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you get thrown out 30-40% of the time, that's HURTING your team, not helping it.

Anything below a 75-80% steal rate is simply unacceptable.

If we were talking about Juan Pierre 5-10 years ago, fine. But we're not. It's like arguing we should bring back Ken Griffey out of retirement because he might be able to hit RHP better than Dayan Viciedo.

 

In the end, he's had these bursts before for a month or two. They don't last...and they've always taken place in the NL, not the AL.

 

If Pierre was so great, why couldn't he perform consistently well for us? Why can he play well for the Dodgers and Phillies but not an AL team?

 

 

[caulfield12]

Except viciedo has scored the same amount of runs out of the 7 spot than Pierre has scored leading off. And their amount of at bats are similar despite Pierre platooning. Really, Pierre isn't happening no matter how much you argue with all of us, and it hasnt been proven why a declining player is so much more valuable than a young power hitter.

 

Just leave it at you want viciedo as a trade chip, the Pierre talk is really not proving anything

 

 

Then he'll argue that Howard and Utley have been out, so it's not fair.

 

It's ridiculous to compare AL and NL stats anyway, especially when the trendline with Juan Pierre in both leagues and at this point in his career (as far as being an effective basestealer) is pretty obvious.

 

 

[Marty34]

Then he'll argue that Howard and Utley have been out, so it's not fair.

 

It's ridiculous to compare AL and NL stats anyway, especially when the trendline with Juan Pierre in both leagues and at this point in his career (as far as being an effective basestealer) is pretty obvious.

 

Please don't make up my arguments.

[Marty34]

Except viciedo has scored the same amount of runs out of the 7 spot than Pierre has scored leading off. And their amount of at bats are similar despite Pierre platooning. Really, Pierre isn't happening no matter how much you argue with all of us, and it hasnt been proven why a declining player is so much more valuable than a young power hitter.

 

Just leave it at you want viciedo as a trade chip, the Pierre talk is really not proving anything

 

I think I argued the reason why Pierre likely would be an upgrade over Viciedo over the last 2 months successfully despite it being ignored or dismissed out of hand.

[southsider2k5]

It's been mentioned, but really, what does it mean to the 2012 Sox? I don't understand why he's such a target at this point other than they like him for 2013 and beyond.

 

Could be a potential flip to another team for a big time pitcher? If not, I like the move as something for 2013 and beyond.

[caulfield12]

I think I argued the reason why Pierre likely would be an upgrade over Viciedo over the last 2 months successfully despite it being ignored or dismissed out of hand.

 

 

Not at all.

 

It's based on one ridiculous stat which is taken out of the full context of the last 3-4 years and is irrelevant because it's from a different league.

[Kyyle23]

I think I argued the reason why Pierre likely would be an upgrade over Viciedo over the last 2 months successfully despite it being ignored or dismissed out of hand.

 

Its not being ignored, its being argued back, you just dont agree. You feel a 2 month platoon sample size of a declining player having a nice start is a better indicator than his entire career, and pretty much everyone else agrees that Viciedo is still feeling out his way as a power hitting run producer(that still has nice numbers) and would rather not part with Viciedo if Pierre is the end result.

 

 

We get it you want to upgrade the rotation using Viciedo as the chip. But this board wants no part of Pierre, no matter how you spin his 2 month OBP

[Marty34]

Not at all.

 

It's based on one ridiculous stat which is taken out of the full context of the last 3-4 years and is irrelevant because it's from a different league.

 

You're advocating Jeremy Guthrie, correct?

[Marty34]

Its not being ignored, its being argued back, you just dont agree. You feel a 2 month platoon sample size of a declining player having a nice start is a better indicator than his entire career, and pretty much everyone else agrees that Viciedo is still feeling out his way as a power hitting run producer(that still has nice numbers) and would rather not part with Viciedo if Pierre is the end result.

 

 

We get it you want to upgrade the rotation using Viciedo as the chip. But this board wants no part of Pierre, no matter how you spin his 2 month OBP

 

It's being argued by "Pierre sucks" or by dismissing an 80-100 point difference in OBP as being meaningless.

[southsider2k5]

Here's an idea. Why don't we table all of the Viciedo versus Pierre stuff unless there is actually a rumor that involves them?

[caulfield12]

You're advocating Jeremy Guthrie, correct?

 

Over trading Viciedo, yes.

 

Did you happen to catch the game last night?

 

Guys like Hernandez and Castro and Molina just aren't ready, and we're doing them no favors getting them crushed out there in hostile environments.

[Marty34]

Over trading Viciedo, yes.

 

Did you happen to catch the game last night?

 

Guys like Hernandez and Castro and Molina just aren't ready, and we're doing them no favors getting them crushed out there in hostile environments.

 

Jeremy Guthrie is no upgrade.

[Marty34]

Here's an idea. Why don't we table all of the Viciedo versus Pierre stuff unless there is actually a rumor that involves them?

 

I guess I can't reply to posts.

[NorthSideSox72]

I guess I can't reply to posts.

Give it a rest. No one wants to see this discussion anymore, its been beaten to death. You insist the couple stats you are citing say he's a good add, everyone else says your view is far too narrow. No movement will occur.

 

I think everyone on the board would be happier if you just dropped it, and if everyone else did too.

 

[southsider2k5]

I guess I can't reply to posts.

 

I have a better idea, if you really feel the need to bait and keep this going, go start a thread for this topic, and let this one actually get back to what its intent was. Deadline pitching targets. That way if people want to talk about it, they can go to a thread dedicated to that purpose, instead of ruining this one.

[caulfield12]

Jeremy Guthrie is no upgrade.

 

 

This is funny.

 

Guthrie's ERA home and away in 2009-10-11 COMBINED was 4.36 and 4.42. The picture of consistency. He also averaged over 200 IP those three seasons. And he's a perfect "buy low" candidate if there ever was one.

 

And yet everyone knows Cooper can't help him and that he'll be forever horrible because he's pitched 4 months in Colorado.

 

 

But I guess some prefer watching Hernandez, Santiago, Castro, Molina and Leesman getting their brains beaten in.

Edited July 19, 2012 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

Give it a rest. No one wants to see this discussion anymore, its been beaten to death. You insist the couple stats you are citing say he's a good add, everyone else says your view is far too narrow. No movement will occur.

 

I think everyone on the board would be happier if you just dropped it, and if everyone else did too.

 

Fair enough. For the record, I don't understand why I'm being singled out in keeping this discussion going (for responding to posts) though. Especially when some of those posts included insults directed at me.

[Kyyle23]

Fair enough. For the record, I don't understand why I'm being singled out in keeping this discussion going (for responding to posts) though. Especially when some of those posts included insults directed at me.

 

Being dealt with, now.

[NorthSideSox72]

Fair enough. For the record, I don't understand why I'm being singled out in keeping this discussion going (for responding to posts) though. Especially when some of those posts included insults directed at me.

The insults will be dealt with. And you will note I did not single you out, I said to drop it, you and everyone else.

 

 

[Iwritecode]

IMHO, you can't compare Pierre and Viciedo because they are two different types of hitters. One gets on base more for other guys to drive him in and the other needs guys on base in front of him to drive in.

 

The only thing they have in common is that they both play the same defensive position.

 

162 game averages:

 

JP runs + rbis = 135 Total bases = 228

DV runs + rbis = 137 total bases = 233

 

 

Edited July 19, 2012 by Iwritecode