Marty34 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:52 PM) Giving up Q would defeat the purpose of adding Greinke. The fact there is NO CHANCE to sign him for the future makes giving up Viciedo and Reed and 2 top minor leaguers a very stupid proposition. Cause if the gamble does not work and we do not make the playoffs, the team next year will be in very bad shape. Viciedo's bat is pretty important to this team's future. Reed is the current closer. Q looks like a decent starter who will eat a lot of innings maybe. The fact the Brewers want a lot means the Sox should not go there. In my mind, it would be tough to be a GM to trade some of the organization's best prospects for 10 starts. Let's say he's blah in two of the starts and great in the other eight? He gets no run support in two of those eight. So he wins six games for us. Yes, he could be pivotal IF we make the playoffs. This is why KW gets paid the big bucks, to make decisions like this. I'd prefer trading a couple prospects to the twins for Liriano and have Coop fix him or send the Marlins players for JOhnson. If the White Sox can justify and survive trading Gio Gonzalez for Swisher, they can withstand trading Viciedo and Reed for Geinke when a postseason birth is at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 27, 2012 -> 02:04 AM) If the White Sox can justify and survive trading Gio Gonzalez for Swisher, they can withstand trading Viciedo and Reed for Geinke when a postseason birth is at stake. 10 games for Greinke as opposed to getting Swisher at the time with 4 years left on his contract....huge difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:04 PM) If the White Sox can justify and survive trading Gio Gonzalez for Swisher, they can withstand trading Viciedo and Reed for Geinke when a postseason birth is at stake. Berth. And they haven't survived particularly well. They're in the bottom 6-7 teams in attendance and haven't been in the playoffs for 3+ seasons. They need to be building for a sustained run, not a "one and done" type of situation where they're going to go into another downturn that's in between this season for the Sox and what the Cubs are currently going through. The Tigers are likely to be back in first place in another hour or so with Verlander. You can't make that kind of gamble with the Tigers looking stronger than ever. This will be a 15-3 run now. You're predicating this whole Zach Greinke to the rescue thing based on 2009's Cy Young season. He's more hype than reality. Sizzle over steak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:12 PM) 10 games for Greinke as opposed to getting Swisher at the time with 4 years left on his contract....huge difference That trade turned out to be a worse case scenario for the Sox, but they survived. I think it's a lot easier for a big revenue team to find a LF'er and closer (if that is what Reed turns out to be) than it is to get a SP the caliber of Gonzalez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 27, 2012 Author Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:12 PM) 10 games for Greinke as opposed to getting Swisher at the time with 4 years left on his contract....huge difference Then there is the no Ozzie Guillen factor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:17 PM) Berth. And they haven't survived particularly well. They're in the bottom 6-7 teams in attendance and haven't been in the playoffs for 3+ seasons. They need to be building for a sustained run, not a "one and done" type of situation where they're going to go into another downturn that's in between this season for the Sox and what the Cubs are currently going through. The Tigers are likely to be back in first place in another hour or so with Verlander. You can't make that kind of gamble with the Tigers looking stronger than ever. This will be a 15-3 run now. You're predicating this whole Zach Greinke to the rescue thing based on 2009's Cy Young season. He's more hype than reality. Sizzle over steak. You sound like you don't want to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:18 PM) That trade turned out to be a worse case scenario for the Sox, but they survived. I think it's a lot easier for a big revenue team to find a LF'er and closer (if that is what Reed turns out to be) than it is to get a SP the caliber of Gonzalez. BUT THEY'RE NOT GETTING GREINKE FOR MORE THAN 10 STARTS! You're acting like he's going to go all 1984 Rick Sutcliffe and roll to ten victories in a row. That's just not going to happen. They survived...and yet you keep calling for the GM's head, largely because of that trade (Swisher) and one would assume Hudson/Holmberg for Jackson, although what Daniel Hudson or Sergio Santos would be doing for us now, it's pretty self-explanatory. You came into this season saying Morel, Beckham, Reed, Viciedo and Molina needed to progress. You didn't include DeAza, but he's clearly become a steady contributor to the line-up as well, at virtually no cost. Only two of those things have happened, yet Quintana, Dunn, Rios, Youkilis, Nathan Jones, Peavy and others have more than compensated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:20 PM) You sound like you don't want to win. Gee, yeah, you're right. I want to lose. I almost wish they would make this miracle trade for Greinke...just to see him fall flat on his face. But then you'd only hold that against Williams when it happened, even though you're advocating it now. You're not being reasonable. You're not looking at other more reasonable options like Cliff Lee, Liriano, Matt Garza or James Shields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:24 PM) BUT THEY'RE NOT GETTING GREINKE FOR MORE THAN 10 STARTS! You're acting like he's going to go all 1984 Rick Sutcliffe and roll to ten victories in a row. That's just not going to happen. They survived...and yet you keep calling for the GM's head, largely because of that trade (Swisher) and one would assume Hudson/Holmberg for Jackson, although what Daniel Hudson or Sergio Santos would be doing for us now, it's pretty self-explanatory. You came into this season saying Morel, Beckham, Reed, Viciedo and Molina needed to progress. You didn't include DeAza, but he's clearly become a steady contributor to the line-up as well, at virtually no cost. Only two of those things have happened, yet Quintana, Dunn, Rios, Youkilis, Nathan Jones, Peavy and others have more than compensated. I think you point fingers too much for someone who is wrong as often as anyone else on this site. If you don't think an upgrade for 10 starts is worth it in a race as close as this, I think you're wrong. If the GM is going to gamble that Swisher can play CF and give up Gio Gonzalez in the process, he has to be willing to make this trade when a playoff bErth is at stake. Edited July 27, 2012 by Marty34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:37 PM) I think you point fingers too much for someone who is wrong as often as anyone else on this site. If you don't think an upgrade for 10 starts is worth it in a race as close as this, I think you're wrong. If the GM is going to gamble that Swisher can play CF and give up Gio Gonzalez in the process, he has to be willing to make this trade when a playoff bErth is at stake. Depends on the cost of the upgrade. There are other avenues to upgrade rather than gambling away our future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:40 PM) Depends on the cost of the upgrade. There are other avenues to upgrade rather than gambling away our future. I guess where we disagree is how good that future is going to be. I don't think its worth holding on to and passing up this opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 1. It's very possible that Jose Quintana outperforms Zach Greinke the rest of this season. He has already outperformed him thus far. 2. Trading Gio Gonzalez, a minor leaguer, for Nick Swisher who was under contract is completely different than this. Nick was an accomplished MLB player and remains so. One has to wonder if the reason he had the one bad year in his career while here is because of the manager and/or coaches. It was a fair trade especially when you consider that Gio was not yet a major leaguer. Jose Quintana has had a run of starts that most major leaguers never get -- the player and contract we'd get in return is eons different as well and IMO is a far riskier trade than the Swisher deal. The Swisher deal should have had minimal risk but apparently he and Ozzie didn't mesh so he had to be an All-Star somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:50 PM) I guess where we disagree is how good that future is going to be. I don't think its worth holding on to and passing up this opportunity. One of the main weaknesses (according to many) about Williams is that he gambles too much year to year...which precludes the White Sox from ever building a sustainable group of younger players maturing together and winning for 2-3-4 seasons. KW has proven this year he could "modernize" how we deal with the draft, we're starting to get more players from the Dominican and Venezuela...it's very much a strategic vision sea change from recent years. The market will turn to favor the buyers as teams like the Cubs have to worry about getting stuck with Dempster, Garza, Maholm, etc. The Brewers aren't going to get what they want for Greinke, the Marlins for Johnson, the Phillies for Lee, etc. This is one situation where KW is better off being patient and waiting until the last moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCangelosi Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 07:56 PM) One of the main weaknesses (according to many) about Williams is that he gambles too much year to year...which precludes the White Sox from ever building a sustainable group of younger players maturing together and winning for 2-3-4 seasons. KW has proven this year he could "modernize" how we deal with the draft, we're starting to get more players from the Dominican and Venezuela...it's very much a strategic vision sea change from recent years. The market will turn to favor the buyers as teams like the Cubs have to worry about getting stuck with Dempster, Garza, Maholm, etc. The Brewers aren't going to get what they want for Greinke, the Marlins for Johnson, the Phillies for Lee, etc. This is one situation where KW is better off being patient and waiting until the last moment. I'm surprised by the lack of action so far this year at the deadline...maybe that will change in the next few days but definitely everyday that passes a team like the Cubs must be dropping their demands as they're not going to want to hang on to some of their SP's in the mode they're in. Strangely the GM for the Brewers admitted 100% they are trading Greinke. Seems like saying something like this affects your leverage- and not in a favorable way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Even mentioning trading Viciedo for a rental shows that you arent really throwing out realistic options. No GM in their right mind would do that. Have you seen the kids numbers lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:17 PM) The Tigers are likely to be back in first place in another hour or so with Verlander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 This isn't meant to be good or bad, but my assessment is that Zack is a big dork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Thomas Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 09:49 PM) Rock, you hearing anything? Your pretty dang solid and have had some great sources in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev211 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Why are so many people doubting the sox ability to win the central in this thread? With or without grienke I think we are better than the tigers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:49 PM) The Indians' announcers and crowd were more shocked. Lots of jinxes and reverse jinxes calling Tigers' games prematurely this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_Thomas Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (kev211 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 09:53 PM) Why are so many people doubting the sox ability to win the central in this thread? With or without grienke I think we are better than the tigers. That may be, however I don't think many people would be just happy winning the central when we could possibly win the World Series. With Grienke that possibility is a whole lot more feasible when you need to shut down the offenses of LA, NYY, TX, Dodgers, Etc. Grienke is an ace and throwing ZG, Sale, Peavy, and Danks is down right scary. This move makes us WS contenders not AL Central contenders like we are now. I love this team and am not doubting. But when you have a chance to get a guy like ZG for a run with the team we have, you take the chance and worry about next year next year. These chances come rarely. Once in 95 years to be exact. Edited July 27, 2012 by Frank_Thomas35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesdiego Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 No ****ing way do you trade either Quintana or Viciedo for a rental. Hell no. Pick from the pack of Floyd(prospects), Jones, maybe Reed, Mitchell. De Aza would be tough. Hope KW doesn't do something stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian26 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 No ****ing way do you trade either Quintana or Viciedo for a rental. Hell no. Pick from the pack of Floyd(prospects), Jones, maybe Reed, Mitchell. De Aza would be tough. Hope KW doesn't do something stupid A rental with no draft pick compensation after this season. That's what separates this from the 2008 Brewers trade for CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 QUOTE (kev211 @ Jul 26, 2012 -> 08:53 PM) Why are so many people doubting the sox ability to win the central in this thread? With or without grienke I think we are better than the tigers. This might be a ban-worthy post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa1334 Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 (edited) The Angels will have to look in-house for help when it comes to their starting rotation, writes Alden Gonzalez of MLB.com. A source with knowledge of the team's thinking described the Angels' chances of acquiring a starter as "below average and diminishing" as the asking prices are too high and the competition for pitching is intense its going to be from the ml team thats for sure...just want it to end already and know Edited July 27, 2012 by Melissa1334 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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