Sox want Grienke "badly"

[Chisoxfn]

Don't have names. Posted exactly what I was told last night. My feelings are that because of a variety of factors (1st place/Tigers trade/attendance spike...etc) KW is really going after it this year and wants it done yesterday. I do think there are fans that will be upset about who goes. Some very real concerns throughout this thread.

There is almost no trade involving Greinke that would make me happy. About the most I'd give up is Floyd/Mitchell. If they want some other mediocre prospects, fine, but anything more is too steap of a price for what I feel only marginally helps the Sox get into the post-season. Now if they do, Greinke does make them more legit contenders in the postseason.

 

However, that is way too steap of a price. If the sox were 6 games up, I'd be more willing, but the downside is you give up everything and barely miss out on the playoffs or get into a one game wild card and lose (in which case, Greinke probably isn't starting that game anyway).

 

If I'm giving up a package with one other good prospect, I'm giving it up for a guy like Johnson that I can at least spin a year from now if things aren't working well (and get the benefit of next year).

[Frank_Thomas]

Why don't the Sox try to get the starting pitcher the Marlins allegedly want to dump. Is it Johnson?

 

Johnson is controlled till the end of 13 at a resonable price. He would take a huge package something like Cliff Lee or CC a while back.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Sounds to me like Viciedo and Reed are gone.

 

I would HATE to lose both of those. And if the Sox had to give one of those guys up, I don't know how one could argue keeping Reed over Viciedo. Between the two, Viciedo has a greater impact on the future than Reed does.

[caulfield12]

Cheap LF'ers and closers are a dime a dozen for high revenue teams. Cheap averageish starting pitching is not.

 

 

First of all, you better be guaranteeing a 9-1 or 10-0 record for Greinke, and you can't do that.

 

At worst, Quintana or Floyd would probably be 5-5.

 

If it's not Quintana, it's going to be Floyd and Reed/Jones and another prospect.

 

If it's so easy to find a closer, we wouldn't have blown 15 saves and gone through Santiago, Thornton, Sale and Viciedo trying to do that.

 

Just think about it...if we had a normal save conversion rate, then there wouldn't be as much of a need to trade for Greinke because we'd be anywhere 12-16 games over .500 right now.

 

Apparently, those games that Greinke throws shutouts or K's 13 are more valuable in the standings than games that aren't blown by the back end of the bullpen. That's not reality. You can argue that those late collapses have been even more damaging to the team psyche than games where Humber, Axelrod, Hernandez or Stults gets hit around.

[Frank_Thomas]

Sounds to me like Viciedo and Reed are gone.

 

I'm pretty sure ViciedO is going NO WHERE. He is producing and in my opinion untouchable. I also don't see Reed being moved. Beckham and Floyd are under performing this year and substituted them out does not will have a huge effect on the team wins or losses the way ZG does. Whether it's 10 starts or not. He changes the look of our team and makes our rotation lethal in a playoff series. We saw what pitching does in October in 05'.

 

Again I am a die hard Beckham fan, but we can replace his lack of production at the plate and nothing changes. Heck maybe we get more production. Secondly yes his D has been great this year, but you can plug in Escobar or Weeks and not miss a beat defensively. It would suck to lose Gordo but the potential impact Grienks brings even for 2 months is absolutely worth it.

[macsandz]

There is almost no trade involving Greinke that would make me happy. About the most I'd give up is Floyd/Mitchell. If they want some other mediocre prospects, fine, but anything more is too steap of a price for what I feel only marginally helps the Sox get into the post-season. Now if they do, Greinke does make them more legit contenders in the postseason.

 

However, that is way too steap of a price. If the sox were 6 games up, I'd be more willing, but the downside is you give up everything and barely miss out on the playoffs or get into a one game wild card and lose (in which case, Greinke probably isn't starting that game anyway).

 

If I'm giving up a package with one other good prospect, I'm giving it up for a guy like Johnson that I can at least spin a year from now if things aren't working well (and get the benefit of next year).

 

Great points. Kenny is so competitive and wants to roll the dice and win now. Hahn is the voice of reason over there.

 

Johnson was likely more of a possibility when I posted their early interest last week. Now his market has exploded.

[caulfield12]

I would HATE to lose both of those. And if the Sox had to give one of those guys up, I don't know how one could argue keeping Reed over Viciedo. Between the two, Viciedo has a greater impact on the future than Reed does.

 

 

There's no way in hell he's going to trade BOTH Reed and Viciedo.

 

Makes zero sense. It means you have a 91-92 MPH throwing Brett Myers as your closer at $10 million next year.

 

That's dumb, because it precludes the chances of keeping Peavy, AJ, Floyd or Youkilis.

 

If you're going to argue you should trade Viciedo, you might as well be trading DeAza or Ramirez. None of those moves make any sense for this team, this year.

[knightni]

If it's so easy to find a closer, we wouldn't have blown 15 saves and gone through Santiago, Thornton, Sale and Viciedo trying to do that.

I assume that you meant "Reed" here.

[Dick Allen]

I wonder if the Sox would be willing to trade Ramirez. Milwaukee wants a SS, and eventually move Beckham to SS.

[Melissa1334]

a starting position player(viciedo,deaza,etc)under control for multiple years, at not a high salary is not worth giving up for a rental pitcher. no way. especially becuase greinke is not an ace(like verlander,weaver,cain,etc) hes really good but probably not even great

 

[Frank_Thomas]

First of all, you better be guaranteeing a 9-1 or 10-0 record for Greinke, and you can't do that.

 

At worst, Quintana or Floyd would probably be 5-5.

 

If it's not Quintana, it's going to be Floyd and Reed/Jones and another prospect.

 

If it's so easy to find a closer, we wouldn't have blown 15 saves and gone through Santiago, Thornton, Sale and Viciedo trying to do that.

 

Just think about it...if we had a normal save conversion rate, then there wouldn't be as much of a need to trade for Greinke because we'd be anywhere 12-16 games over .500 right now.

 

Apparently, those games that Greinke throws shutouts or K's 13 are more valuable in the standings than games that aren't blown by the back end of the bullpen. That's not reality. You can argue that those late collapses have been even more damaging to the team psyche than games where Humber, Axelrod, Hernandez or Stults gets hit around.

 

 

I agree we can't promise 9-1 10-0 but even if he wins six against the likes of Det or Cle, that's a difference maker and an impact move. Really how many wins is Gordon or Floyd going to bring us?

 

And the chemistry thing is overrated, they are professionals and when they step into the clubhouse and on the field it's about one thing baseball and winning. That has been stated over and over again this year by players. We have a group of guys that want to win and want a ring. They will understand this move and IMO be happy about it. Gordo is great same with Gav but check the egos at the door.you can still be buds, but if it makes us WS Champs I don't think anyone in that dugout will be upset.

 

[southsider2k5]

If I am Kenny, I'd give Minnesota a call about Liriano. It can't hurt.

[Jake]

In the "best case" that we resign Greinke, we've still traded minimum salary big contributors to pay a pitcher $20M+ for longer than we'd probably want to. This is my biggest gripe here. I'd rather pay Peavy 20 per for 2 years than Greinke for 6.

[caulfield12]

I wonder if the Sox would be willing to trade Ramirez. Milwaukee wants a SS, and eventually move Beckham to SS.

 

 

Then you give up anything positive about having Beckham on the team.

 

He would be just an average ML SS. And his bat, as it's trending the last 3 years, would be below average.

 

 

Unless you go with the magical formula...move Gordon to SS or hit him 2nd or never make him bunt again and he'll morph into an All-Star player after struggling for 3+ years.

[fathom]

I wonder if the Sox would be willing to trade Ramirez. Milwaukee wants a SS, and eventually move Beckham to SS.

 

I've been thinking that a team would trade for Beckham this offseason and try to move him to SS (or possibly 3b if they have a hole there). I wouldn't be shocked if the Cubs were interested in him, as both the Padres and Red Sox were rumored to have interest in him in the past.

[caulfield12]

In the "best case" that we resign Greinke, we've still traded minimum salary big contributors to pay a pitcher $20M+ for longer than we'd probably want to. This is my biggest gripe here. I'd rather pay Peavy 20 per for 2 years than Greinke for 6.

 

 

And he's already turned down that money.

 

So it's going to be $22.5-25 million for the pitching version of Josh Hamilton.

 

No thanks. If the Danks deal never went down, then maybe. But that's just too much risk on two pitchers. Those kinds of contracts are almost always disappointing in the long-term.

 

Can we think of any $100+ million pitching contracts where the team throwing that money around has been satisfied?

[Melissa1334]

And he's already turned down that money.

 

So it's going to be $22.5-25 million for the pitching version of Josh Hamilton.

 

No thanks. If the Danks deal never went down, then maybe. But that's just too much risk on two pitchers. Those kinds of contracts are almost always disappointing in the long-term.

 

Can we think of any $100+ million pitching contracts where the team throwing that money around has been satisfied?

probably just cc

[Dick Allen]

Then you give up anything positive about having Beckham on the team.

 

He would be just an average ML SS. And his bat, as it's trending the last 3 years, would be below average.

 

 

Unless you go with the magical formula...move Gordon to SS or hit him 2nd or never make him bunt again and he'll morph into an All-Star player after struggling for 3+ years.

We heard he'd be average at best at 3B, but he was pretty good after a few weeks. We heard he'd be decent at 2B, he's GG calibur. His arm is strong enough to play SS and he has some nice range. I don't know why anyone would say he'd just be average, at least defensively.

And he hasn't struggled for 3+ years. He was pretty awesome the second half of 2010 before he broke his hand. Ramirez is good for 3 or 4 months of the season. It would be hard to let him go, but, even if Beckham doesn't hit next April and most of May, he'll still be even with Ramirez's production up to that point. I don't think its in the cards, but it would be a consideration.

[caulfield12]

I agree we can't promise 9-1 10-0 but even if he wins six against the likes of Det or Cle, that's a difference maker and an impact move. Really how many wins is Gordon or Floyd going to bring us?

 

And the chemistry thing is overrated, they are professionals and when they step into the clubhouse and on the field it's about one thing baseball and winning. That has been stated over and over again this year by players. We have a group of guys that want to win and want a ring. They will understand this move and IMO be happy about it. Gordo is great same with Gav but check the egos at the door.you can still be buds, but if it makes us WS Champs I don't think anyone in that dugout will be upset.

 

But you're going to use Sale in that wildcard game, arguably. It wouldn't be Greinke. And good luck telling Peavy he's not starting after being on the team for 3+ years if for some reason Sale isn't still pitching at that point in the season.

 

I just think we have a big mountain to climb to overcome the Tigers...maybe it can be done.

 

But, as someone mentioned before, we're not 4-6 games in first. We're tied, and will probably be 1/2 game back going into a tough Rangers series on the road after we wiped them out in Chicago last time. They're going to be ready for us.

 

That's just too iffy...not only that, you've got the A's, Orioles, Angels, Rays...it's not going to be easy to get that 2nd wild card. Certainly not a sure thing by any means.

[iamshack]

If I am Kenny, I'd give Minnesota a call about Liriano. It can't hurt.

He's probably already spoken to them several times about Liriano...he makes it pretty clear that he calls about EVERYONE...

[fathom]

But you're going to use Sale in that wildcard game, arguably. It wouldn't be Greinke. And good luck telling Peavy he's not starting after being on the team for 3+ years if for some reason Sale isn't still pitching at that point in the season.

 

Well, we all know how awesome Peavy is in postseason/tiebreak games. It's unlikely that the Sox would be in a position to shuffle their rotation around to line up the starter they want for that one game anyways.

Edited July 26, 2012 by fathom

[caulfield12]

We heard he'd be average at best at 3B, but he was pretty good after a few weeks. We heard he'd be decent at 2B, he's GG calibur. His arm is strong enough to play SS and he has some nice range. I don't know why anyone would say he'd just be average, at least defensively.

And he hasn't struggled for 3+ years. He was pretty awesome the second half of 2010 before he broke his hand. Ramirez is good for 3 or 4 months of the season. It would be hard to let him go, but, even if Beckham doesn't hit next April and most of May, he'll still be even with Ramirez's production up to that point. I don't think its in the cards, but it would be a consideration.

 

I just don't see him having nearly the range or arm or athleticism as Alexei does at SS.

 

He has an above average arm for 2B, but it would get exposed on balls deep in the hole and balls up the middle where he has to throw against his body.

 

More importantly, it would be a huge risk because the likelihood of him ever rediscovering his 2009 stroke with the White Sox just isn't very high.

 

After all this time, looking at how his swing looks now, is there any reason to believe he'll magically figure it all out?

 

He's worked with Walker AND Manto now. Nothing seems to be working. The best thing for him would be a change of scenery. There were just too many expectations based on his rookie season, and he never has been able to live up to them. Whether he ends up like Angel Berroa or has a long and productive career is up to him, but I would be shocked if it happened in Chicago.

[southsider2k5]

He's probably already spoken to them several times about Liriano...he makes it pretty clear that he calls about EVERYONE...

 

He also seems to be the best available starter that no one is talking about.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Well, we all know how awesome Peavy is in postseason/tiebreak games. It's unlikely that the Sox would be in a position to shuffle their rotation around to line up the starter they want for that one game anyways.

 

Based on a whole 2 games?

[fathom]

He also seems to be the best available starter that no one is talking about.

 

Where's our Liriano?