Frank Thomas

[Dick Allen]

This team has been criticized mercilessly about their collective approaches to the plate. Basically they just swing for the fences. Frank has had a HOF career, and was putting up big numbers, until he announced he was just going to swing for the fences and not worry about his average. I've found nothing on this board questioning Frank's decision.Since this announcement, his average has plummeted dramatically, while his power production has waned. JM should never have criticized him in the papers, thats bush league, but he does have a point. Why, after being successful for so long, and seemingly finding the groove after a couple of tough years, does he change his approach. Is he so infatuated with hitting 500 homeruns that he is scrapping everything else? Sounds Sosaesque to me.

[Texsox]

I think Frank is at a critical point in his career. He's not as young as he use to be, suffered through a nasty, nagging injury and now finds her can't turn it on like he use to. He also isn't striking any fear into pitchers like he did 5-6 years ago. He keeps looking for that magic and it ain't there. He's going to have to work extra hard from this point forward to slow the decline.

[southsider2k5]

This team has been criticized mercilessly about their collective approaches to the plate. Basically they just swing for the fences. Frank has had a HOF career, and was putting up big numbers, until he announced he was just going to swing for the fences and not worry about his average. I've found nothing on this board questioning Frank's decision.Since this announcement, his average has plummeted dramatically, while his power production has waned. JM should never have criticized him in the papers, thats bush league, but he does have a point. Why, after being successful for so long, and seemingly finding the groove after a couple of tough years, does he change his approach. Is he so infatuated with hitting 500 homeruns that he is scrapping everything else? Sounds Sosaesque to me.

I absolutely did. I was one of the few, and was drown out by the Thomas Bandwagon, but I have also noticed that since that timeframe his production has gone down the toilet.

[southsider2k5]

This is Franks quote in the paper today...

 

After having watched his team's offense sputter in Anaheim, Manuel said the Sox would need Thomas to provide the spark. He also said he hoped Thomas would emphasize RBIs and on-base percentage over home runs.

 

Thomas disagreed.

 

"I think I'm more helpful to the team setting the tone with a big bat," he said Saturday. "I've had some big games with homers and doubles, and I've definitely gotten away from looking for bloopers and base hits. Sure, I can take my walks. But [then] you lose that aggression."

 

After fanning three times Friday, Thomas was given Saturday off.

 

"Obviously, Jerry's getting a little frustrated with our offense if he's making those type of comments specifically directed my way," he said. "You've got seven guys in this locker room that are All-Stars, basically. We've got a very powerful lineup.

 

"We just went through a little funk here after playing so well for a long period."

 

My question is how was he such a great hitter in the 90's if walks take away from your aggressiveness? Can anyone answer that one for me????

[Rex Hudler]

Diminishing skills, perhaps?? (no subconscious reference here)

 

He is definitely a different hitter now. Perhaps he needs the aggressive approach to be able to turn on the inside pitch now, where before he was quicker??

 

I'm not saying that is accurate, but it could be a possibility....

[Bmr31]

This team has been criticized mercilessly about their collective approaches to the plate. Basically they just swing for the fences. Frank has had a HOF career, and was putting up big numbers, until he announced he was just going to swing for the fences and not worry about his average. I've found nothing on this board questioning Frank's decision.Since this announcement, his average has plummeted dramatically, while his power production has waned. JM should never have criticized him in the papers, thats bush league, but he does have a point. Why, after being successful for so long, and seemingly finding the groove after a couple of tough years, does he change his approach. Is he so infatuated with hitting 500 homeruns that he is scrapping everything else? Sounds Sosaesque to me.

People, including myself, criticize Frank constantly. Whats new about his latest BS? The guy is ALWAYS about himself.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Manuel is a F-up. Frank avgs an 1100+ OPS at 1B & a 900+ OPS at DH over the last 4 yrs. In 2003 he's avg'g 1200+ OPS at 1B & 833+ OPS at DH.

 

NOW HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE NOT TO PLAY HIM AT 1B WHEN HE ASKS YOU TO BEFORE THE ROAD TRIP BEGAN ?

[winninguglyin83]

If the pitching had held the opposing team to 6 runs or less in three more games on this trip, we wouldn't be debating any of this.

 

Pitching, pitching, pitching has been the problem this week.

 

And pitching is going to decide which team wins the division.

 

If the Sox pitch the way they had pitched until Colon blew up in Anaheim, Frank can bat left-handed and the Sox would still compete.

[Rex Hudler]

If the pitching had held the opposing team to 6 runs or less in three more games on this trip, we wouldn't be debating any of this.

 

Pitching, pitching, pitching has been the problem this week.

 

And pitching is going to decide which team wins the division.

 

If the Sox pitch the way they had pitched until Colon blew up in Anaheim, Frank can bat left-handed and the Sox would still compete.

And Frank might hit better!

[Heads22]

Manuel is a F-up. Frank avgs an 1100+ OPS at 1B & a 900+ OPS at DH over the last 4 yrs.  In 2003 he's avg'g 1200+ OPS at 1B & 833+ OPS at DH. 

 

NOW HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE NOT TO PLAY HIM AT 1B WHEN HE ASKS YOU TO BEFORE THE ROAD TRIP BEGAN ?

I seriously doubt not playing first base is the biggest problem.

[southsider2k5]

And BTW this also stands out to me as a prime example of players not listening to Manuel. Manuel says he wants to see Frank do something different at the plate, by taking some pitches and hit some balls the other way to drive in some runs, and Frank says to the media, all he is worried about is driving the ball, contradicting him in the media. Either Frank has no respect for Manuel, or Frank is being uncoachable... Which one is it?

[JUGGERNAUT]

And BTW this also stands out to me as a prime example of players not listening to Manuel.  Manuel says he wants to see Frank do something different at the plate, by taking some pitches and hit some balls the other way to drive in some runs, and Frank says to the media, all he is worried about is driving the ball, contradicting him in the media.  Either Frank has no respect for Manuel, or Frank is being uncoachable...  Which one is it?

Who on this planet respects Manuel? Would you?

[Guest Ncorgbl]

And BTW this also stands out to me as a prime example of players not listening to Manuel.  Manuel says he wants to see Frank do something different at the plate, by taking some pitches and hit some balls the other way to drive in some runs, and Frank says to the media, all he is worried about is driving the ball, contradicting him in the media.  Either Frank has no respect for Manuel, or Frank is being uncoachable...  Which one is it?

It's neither. What happened is the media decide some controversey would help their business. Notice Frank didn't take the bait this time, and Manuel handled it.

 

From the Sun-Times;

A big hurt: Manuel miffed at media

 

August 17, 2003

 

BY DOUG PADILLA STAFF REPORTER

 

ARLINGTON, Texas--White Sox manager Jerry Manuel took a light-hearted approach Saturday to make a point he was disappointed with how his comments on Frank Thomas were portrayed.

 

Asked before Friday's game about the team's latest offensive woes, Manuel offered that a productive Thomas is what makes the offense go. Thomas was 1-for-16 in his previous four games before Saturday, with three of those games ending in defeat.

 

As a group of reporters asked for Thomas' reaction to the comments Saturday, Manuel approached the crowd, where he was handed copies of that day's newspaper stories.

 

Manuel flipped through the stories, noting that three of the four did not include the one positive comment he made about Thomas.

 

''None of you put in there how good he could be if he made his mind up to do something except for [one],'' Manuel said to the group that--by no coincidence--included Thomas. ''I gave you good stuff and what's up? You just write the negative. What's up?''

 

For the record, Manuel's positive comment was made when asked if he was disturbed Thomas said last month that he wanted to be more of a free swinger.

 

''He works constantly,'' Manuel said Friday. ''He really works hard to get his hitting right. He's the type of guy that will make a statement like he made and he'll work like heck to do it. He's determined to do it and that's what made him so good.''

 

But Manuel followed up by saying: ''I would rather him become an RBI machine, a base-hit guy, a doubles guy and a guy with a high on-base percentage. I think that would benefit us most.''

 

In an attempt to exact some revenge, Manuel held his pregame meeting with reporters Saturday on the field in the heat and humidity. When that meeting took place in the air-conditioned comfort of his office Friday, it lasted nearly 11 minutes.

 

On Saturday, it lasted just three minutes.

 

NOT IN TIME: Thomas, who was not in the starting lineup after striking out three times Friday, did get a chance to comment before Manuel made his strike.

 

''Obviously, Jerry's getting a little frustrated with our offense if he's making those type of comments, specifically directed my way,'' Thomas said. ''You've got seven guys in this locker room that are All-Stars. We've got a very powerful lineup.

 

''We just went through a little funk here after playing so well for a long period. It happens.''

 

=========================================

Manuel is not what a lot of people think. His has a quiet, reserved way, but he does act, we just don't get to see it, while those who need to, feel it.

[Steff]

Manuel is a F-up. Frank avgs an 1100+ OPS at 1B & a 900+ OPS at DH over the last 4 yrs.  In 2003 he's avg'g 1200+ OPS at 1B & 833+ OPS at DH. 

 

NOW HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE NOT TO PLAY HIM AT 1B WHEN HE ASKS YOU TO BEFORE THE ROAD TRIP BEGAN ?

I seriously doubt not playing first base is the biggest problem.

Definitely not the biggest.. but I'd gamble that it's a part.

 

Frank likes to be part of the action. Not playing leaves room for the mind to wander. Lord knows he wanders enough as it is..

[Dick Allen]

Thats what I don't understand. JM loves to experiment. Why not put Frank at first, and see if he starts hitting. JM said he would play him there. Its not like Konerko is a gold glove canidate.

[Steff]

Its not like Konerko is a gold glove canidate.

What...???

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

They're both at fault. Manuel is an idiot. But Frank's biggest problem is the 6 inch zone between his ears. He's never trusted his own talent, and this latest idea may be worst one yet. Being the current bad idea, we're suffering from it now. He's always been a better hitter and a more impact player when he takes his walks. And in the last KC series at USCF, he took walks in key situations, even though he was chasing his 2k hit. I thought he didn't get enough credit for that at the time, because he was being such a team player.

 

Now he goes home where he always hits. He'll probably rationalize that the 3 homers he hits this week prove he was right all along, and then he'll be back in his road trip funk.

 

All that being said, he's still the best hitter with longevity we've ever seen on the South Side. For one year, though, give me the 1972 Dick Allen.

[southsider2k5]

Manuel is a F-up.   Frank avgs an 1100+ OPS at 1B & a 900+ OPS at DH over the last 4 yrs.  In 2003 he's avg'g 1200+ OPS at 1B & 833+ OPS at DH. 

 

NOW HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE NOT TO PLAY HIM AT 1B WHEN HE ASKS YOU TO BEFORE THE ROAD TRIP BEGAN ?

I seriously doubt not playing first base is the biggest problem.

Definitely not the biggest.. but I'd gamble that it's a part.

 

Frank likes to be part of the action. Not playing leaves room for the mind to wander. Lord knows he wanders enough as it is..

It is amazing when you look at two of Frank's splits. 1B vs DH and home vs away.

 

1B .352 BA 91 AB 8HR 22 RBI 22BB 22K 1.212 OPS

DH .234 BA 316 AB 20HR 44RBI 53BB 65K .833 OPS

 

Home .280 BA 200 AB 20HR 41 RBI 36BB 40K 1.043 OPS

Away .239 BA 209 AB 8HR 25 RBI 39BB 48K .792 OPS

 

There is obviously a link between him being busy or not having anything to between AB's, and how well he hits. Frank has some real issues staying into a game when he is DHing at an away park. From what I understand he stays fresh by going into the underground cages and/or taking swings from a coach. It isn't that he needs to play first everyday, it sounds like it needs to be done more often on the road though.

[Bmr31]

Manuel is a F-up.   Frank avgs an 1100+ OPS at 1B & a 900+ OPS at DH over the last 4 yrs.  In 2003 he's avg'g 1200+ OPS at 1B & 833+ OPS at DH. 

 

NOW HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE NOT TO PLAY HIM AT 1B WHEN HE ASKS YOU TO BEFORE THE ROAD TRIP BEGAN ?

I seriously doubt not playing first base is the biggest problem.

Definitely not the biggest.. but I'd gamble that it's a part.

 

Frank likes to be part of the action. Not playing leaves room for the mind to wander. Lord knows he wanders enough as it is..

It is amazing when you look at two of Frank's splits. 1B vs DH and home vs away.

 

1B .352 BA 91 AB 8HR 22 RBI 22BB 22K 1.212 OPS

DH .234 BA 316 AB 20HR 44RBI 53BB 65K .833 OPS

 

Home .280 BA 200 AB 20HR 41 RBI 36BB 40K 1.043 OPS

Away .239 BA 209 AB 8HR 25 RBI 39BB 48K .792 OPS

 

There is obviously a link between him being busy or not having anything to between AB's, and how well he hits. Frank has some real issues staying into a game when he is DHing at an away park. From what I understand he stays fresh by going into the underground cages and/or taking swings from a coach. It isn't that he needs to play first everyday, it sounds like it needs to be done more often on the road though.

Or an easier and more logical explanation is................hes pouting when hes at DH. The guy is a baby.....

[southsider2k5]

Manuel is a F-up.   Frank avgs an 1100+ OPS at 1B & a 900+ OPS at DH over the last 4 yrs.  In 2003 he's avg'g 1200+ OPS at 1B & 833+ OPS at DH. 

 

NOW HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE NOT TO PLAY HIM AT 1B WHEN HE ASKS YOU TO BEFORE THE ROAD TRIP BEGAN ?

I seriously doubt not playing first base is the biggest problem.

Definitely not the biggest.. but I'd gamble that it's a part.

 

Frank likes to be part of the action. Not playing leaves room for the mind to wander. Lord knows he wanders enough as it is..

It is amazing when you look at two of Frank's splits. 1B vs DH and home vs away.

 

1B .352 BA 91 AB 8HR 22 RBI 22BB 22K 1.212 OPS

DH .234 BA 316 AB 20HR 44RBI 53BB 65K .833 OPS

 

Home .280 BA 200 AB 20HR 41 RBI 36BB 40K 1.043 OPS

Away .239 BA 209 AB 8HR 25 RBI 39BB 48K .792 OPS

 

There is obviously a link between him being busy or not having anything to between AB's, and how well he hits. Frank has some real issues staying into a game when he is DHing at an away park. From what I understand he stays fresh by going into the underground cages and/or taking swings from a coach. It isn't that he needs to play first everyday, it sounds like it needs to be done more often on the road though.

Or an easier and more logical explanation is................hes pouting when hes at DH. The guy is a baby.....

Personally, I just don't think he is mentally tough enough. But that is just MO.

[clujer420]

Personally, I just don't think he is mentally tough enough.  But that is just MO.

"Mentally weak" or not, the man hits better when he's playing 1st. This is not debatable. As a manager, it's Jerry's job to give his guys the best opportunity to succeed, and if that means Frank playing the field, he's going to have to accommodate that.

[Bmr31]

"Mentally weak" or not, the man hits better when he's playing 1st.  This is not debatable.  As a manager, it's Jerry's job to give his guys the best opportunity to succeed, and if that means Frank playing the field, he's going to have to accommodate that.

Oh dont give me that s***. Frank Thomas makes a LOT of money to hit a f***ing baseball whether hes playing 1st base, dh or playing center field. He is just a whiny, pouting, crying baby who isnt trying hard enough because he isnt getting his way............

[CubKilla]

Oh dont give me that s***.  Frank Thomas makes a LOT of money to hit a f***ing baseball whether hes playing 1st base, dh or playing center field.

Bmr..... any one ever tell you that you are THE MAN?

[clujer420]

Oh dont give me that s***.  Frank Thomas makes a LOT of money to hit a f***ing baseball whether hes playing 1st base, dh or playing center field.  He is just a whiny, pouting, crying baby who isnt trying hard enough because he isnt getting his way............

So then buy out his contract at the end of the season and be done with him. But as far as the rest of 2003 goes, the Sox are still in it (the way they're playing would indicate otherwise, though), and if Frank's bat gets hot, that would make a HUGE difference. Put the guy over at 1B for 4-5 games starting tonight and see what happens. If he's still going 1-4 with 2 k's every game, bench him in favor of Daubach or somebody else.

 

And I don't disagree with you -- Frank has gotten paid 10's of millions to hit a baseball, and he should be able to do it regardless of where he's at between innings, whether it be in the dugout or on the field. But, that's ideally how it would be. The FACT of the matter is that due to something (being a baby, having no heart, having no brain, etc, etc), that is not how it is with Frank. The numbers do NOT lie.

[Bmr31]

So then buy out his contract at the end of the season and be done with him.  But as far as the rest of 2003 goes, the Sox are still in it (the way they're playing would indicate otherwise, though), and if Frank's bat gets hot, that would make a HUGE difference.  Put the guy over at 1B for 4-5 games starting tonight and see what happens.  If he's still going 1-4 with 2 k's every game, bench him in favor of Daubach or somebody else.

 

And I don't disagree with you -- Frank has gotten paid 10's of millions to hit a baseball, and he should be able to do it regardless of where he's at between innings, whether it be in the dugout or on the field.  But, that's ideally how it would be.  The FACT of the matter is that due to something (being a baby, having no heart, having no brain, etc, etc), that is not how it is with Frank.  The numbers do NOT lie.

Frank Thomas is an AWESOME hitter when he wants to be. The problem is he is selfish, he whines, he doesnt put the team first and he is getting older. Im all for letting this guy go and believe me, a few years ago i was a HUGE Frank fan...........