EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:16 PM) Because hate is a motive, and motive can be a factor in how harsh the penalties are. Are you arguing that it shouldnt be more of a penalty, or that its duplicative as a law and therefore unnecessary? Bad thought is already punished. Murder 1 v Murder 2. Intentional arson versus non-intentional. If I purposefully burnt down a school, shouldnt I be punished more than if I accidentally burnt down a school? I really dont know where you are going with this. You are charged with murder one or murder 2. Not murder, and a hate crime. The addition of hate crime does nothing to make the situation any better for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Are you really against raising awareness about racism?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 08:36 PM) Are you really against raising awareness about racism?! yes he is. pretty sick, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:36 PM) Are you really against raising awareness about racism?! Do you really think there is a person alive that doesn't know what racism is and that it exists? Geeze, we hear about it with every phantom code phrase the media makes up when anyone talks about Obama. Or anytime anyone dare opposes a mosque in their neighborhood. Or anytime someone decides they dont like illegal immigration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:39 PM) yes he is. pretty sick, huh? You want to arrest someone for thought. THAT is sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 08:47 PM) You want to arrest someone for thought. THAT is sick. premeditated murder. /end discussion. you lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:47 PM) Do you really think there is a person alive that doesn't know what racism is and that it exists? Geeze, we hear about it with every phantom code phrase the media makes up when anyone talks about Obama. Or anytime anyone dare opposes a mosque in their neighborhood. Or anytime someone decides they dont like illegal immigration. ... Yeah, when I was little I didn't know what racism was. It's why my best friend is half black, fourth white, fourth hispanic. We're we supposed to give a s***? Nah, we just played baseball together in little league. I remember someone questioning it once and I couldn't understand why they questioned our friendship. Then life decided to just s*** all over my innocence and teach me what racism was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:50 PM) premeditated murder. /end discussion. you lose. Still just one charge. Not murder, and oh, since you hated him, we'll charge you for that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:29 PM) You are charged with murder one or murder 2. Not murder, and a hate crime. The addition of hate crime does nothing to make the situation any better for anyone. Okay its just you have a misunderstanding. You can be charged with murder 1 and murder 2 in the alternative. Just like you can be charged with lets say murder 1 hate and murder 1 non-hate. Its not multiple crimes, its an additional element to the same crime. Its no different then assault or assault with a deadly weapon. The only possible hate "thought" crime would be something like "conspiracy to commit a hate crime" or "terrorist conspiracy", but then again most are fine with the conspiracy charge, which is technically thought crime, and what should be considered one of the most troubling ways for govts to abuse power. But once again, its well established in law that there can be factors that either increase or decrease the penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:50 PM) premeditated murder. /end discussion. you lose. You could try Conspiracy, but even there you are usually committing some sort of actionable offense, not just thinking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 There always has, always is, and always will be ignorant assholes in the world. Not much you can do about it. Raise awareness or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Damn internet going so slow, by the time I answer, there are 3 or 4 more replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:57 PM) You could try Conspiracy, but even there you are usually committing some sort of actionable offense, not just thinking about it. How are drawing up plans to commit a crime an actionable offense? A crime is something that happens, not something that you thought maybe could happen. Conspiracy is absolutely thought crime, because you are taking away the actionable offense. How do you know the person would actually do it? You dont, hence its thought crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) I mean here is the Illinois Code: Under Illinois Law, (720 ILCS 5/9-2), a person commits the Felony crime of Second Degree Murder when: (a) they commit the offense of First Degree Murder as defined in paragraphs (1) or (2) of subsection (a) of Section 9-1 (see above) of this Code and either of the following mitigating factors are present: Murder 1 and Murder 2 are the same crime, just different circumstances. I cant make this anymore clear. Edited August 7, 2012 by Soxbadger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:01 PM) How are drawing up plans to commit a crime an actionable offense? A crime is something that happens, not something that you thought maybe could happen. Conspiracy is absolutely thought crime, because you are taking away the actionable offense. How do you know the person would actually do it? You dont, hence its thought crime. You still have to have done SOMETHING. Talked to someone about killing your wife, bought bomb parts online after posting you wanted to kill XXX and so on. They get terrorists on that for conspiracy after they buy (fake) bombs from undercover officers. So they DID something, not just woke up one day and said to themselves 'i wanna blow up a bridge today'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:06 PM) You still have to have done SOMETHING. Talked to someone about killing your wife, bought bomb parts online after posting you wanted to kill XXX and so on. They get terrorists on that for conspiracy after they buy (fake) bombs from undercover officers. So they DID something, not just woke up one day and said to themselves 'i wanna blow up a bridge today'. Are you seriously taking this position? You are always so anti-govt, yet you are fine with conspiracy, which is legitimately one of the most controversial tools of the US govt. Wow, that is impossible to believe. Think about what you are saying: TALKED TO SOMEONE ABOUT KILLING YOUR WIFE That is the epitome of THOUGHT CRIME. The person did nothing but THINK ABOUT IT. They didnt even attack her. Now lets say they bought a knife at the store, is that a substantial act towards a felony (I think thats the requirement for conspiracy)? Maybe they just needed a knife. And buying bombs should be illegal in and of itself. Trying to purchase bombs (an actual criminal act) can be punished. Can I arrest anyone who buys a gun, because the only reason you buy a gun is to shoot someone, and that likely could be a felony? Sound logic. Im just blown away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:11 PM) Are you seriously taking this position? You are always so anti-govt, yet you are fine with conspiracy, which is legitimately one of the most controversial tools of the US govt. Wow, that is impossible to believe. Think about what you are saying: TALKED TO SOMEONE ABOUT KILLING YOUR WIFE That is the epitome of THOUGHT CRIME. The person did nothing but THINK ABOUT IT. They didnt even attack her. Now lets say they bought a knife at the store, is that a substantial act towards a felony (I think thats the requirement for conspiracy)? Maybe they just needed a knife. And buying bombs should be illegal in and of itself. Trying to purchase bombs (an actual criminal act) can be punished. Can I arrest anyone who buys a gun, because the only reason you buy a gun is to shoot someone, and that likely could be a felony? Sound logic. Im just blown away. Where did I say I was OK with that? And by talking to someone about killing your wife, I meant talking to someone about killing your wife FOR YOU. Forgot to add that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:13 PM) Where did I say I was OK with that? And by talking to someone about killing your wife, I meant talking to someone about killing your wife FOR YOU. Forgot to add that. I dont know you are acting like conspiracy is okay, yet are going nuts over the additional hate element in a crime. And you can just make it a crime to pay someone to kill someone else, you dont need to add the conspiracy to commit murder charge. Murder for hire is illegal in and of itself, i believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Alpha just doesn't know what the f*** he's talking about. let him be ignorant. he doesn't WANT not to be. Nothing you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:19 PM) Alpha just doesn't know what the f*** he's talking about. let him be ignorant. he doesn't WANT not to be. Nothing you can do. Soxbadger replied with facts and some things to try and support his argument. You replied with wanting to raise awareness. I respect his arguments here, yours, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 09:29 PM) Soxbadger replied with facts and some things to try and support his argument. You replied with wanting to raise awareness. I respect his arguments here, yours, not so much. that's fine, i don't want your respect, since it would diminish the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:33 PM) that's fine, i don't want your respect, since it would diminish the word. Yeah, you just want the world to think like you and you hate on all that don't. No probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:39 PM) Yeah, you just want the world to think like you and you hate on all that don't. No probs. i dont hate people who don't think like i do. i hate people who choose to be ignorant in spite of having the actual facts staring them in the face. i hate people who think facts are "opinions". i hate people who are bigots. i hate people who ignore logic. and I apologize if I don't respond in novels like some posters on this board. I've got more important things to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 10:48 PM) i dont hate people who don't think like i do. i hate people who choose to be ignorant in spite of having the actual facts staring them in the face. i hate people who think facts are "opinions". i hate people who are bigots. i hate people who ignore logic. and I apologize if I don't respond in novels like some posters on this board. I've got more important things to do. So I am a bigot. Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Aug 6, 2012 -> 11:06 PM) You still have to have done SOMETHING. Talked to someone about killing your wife, bought bomb parts online after posting you wanted to kill XXX and so on. They get terrorists on that for conspiracy after they buy (fake) bombs from undercover officers. So they DID something, not just woke up one day and said to themselves 'i wanna blow up a bridge today'. Dude blows up bridge because he is a dips*** Dude blows up bridge and claims he is doing it on behalf of an Islamic resistance group ...are those two things not different? The same thing happened but one of them has the element of terrorism added to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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