Beckham having a rough second half

[southsider2k5]

As I mentioned earlier, his ability to hit high velo fastballs has been an issue for a couple years... but not so much the past couple weeks. The advanced stats won't tell you that, yet. Use your eyes. We'll see if it sticks, but for now, he's made a good adjustment.

 

Also, I find it hilarious when people throw out gourmet offensive stats, but then decides having a "good glove" is meaningless. Defense is a key part of any player's value to a team (except DH's), and that is amplified in the middle infield. Beckham being above average defensively at 2B has definite value to he team.

 

Want proof of the value of defense? Check out how many more UER the Tigers have given up this year than the Sox... then add to that the even more runs given up on lack of range, etc... and you start to realize that the Tigers are giving up probably close to a half run more per game than the Sox just due to defense. And they are 2 games back, despite their talent. Defense matters.

 

Defense is pretty much the reason the Sox are in first place. If they were playing defense like last year, they would be 10 games out.

[NorthSideSox72]

Defense is pretty much the reason the Sox are in first place. If they were playing defense like last year, they would be 10 games out.

Or alternately, if Detroit wasn't playing some of the worst defense in baseball, including 2 or 3 guys who might be the worst regulars at their positions... they'd be well up on the Sox.

 

[southsider2k5]

Or alternately, if Detroit wasn't playing some of the worst defense in baseball, including 2 or 3 guys who might be the worst regulars at their positions... they'd be well up on the Sox.

 

Yep. The numbers were something like giving up an extra unearned run every three games versus what the Sox have done this year. Even with those hitters, that is a massive hole to pitch around.

[LittleHurt05]

Or alternately, if Detroit wasn't playing some of the worst defense in baseball, including 2 or 3 guys who might be the worst regulars at their positions... they'd be well up on the Sox.

 

Two of their top 4 starters are ground ball pitchers as well. They are lucky Verlander & Scherzer strike out so many batters, or their unearned run total would be even worse.

[Y2HH]

As I mentioned earlier, his ability to hit high velo fastballs has been an issue for a couple years... but not so much the past couple weeks. The advanced stats won't tell you that, yet. Use your eyes. We'll see if it sticks, but for now, he's made a good adjustment.

 

Also, I find it hilarious when people throw out gourmet offensive stats, but then decides having a "good glove" is meaningless. Defense is a key part of any player's value to a team (except DH's), and that is amplified in the middle infield. Beckham being above average defensively at 2B has definite value to he team.

 

Want proof of the value of defense? Check out how many more UER the Tigers have given up this year than the Sox... then add to that the even more runs given up on lack of range, etc... and you start to realize that the Tigers are giving up probably close to a half run more per game than the Sox just due to defense. And they are 2 games back, despite their talent. Defense matters.

 

Isn't Beckham's defensive WAR actually negative right now?

 

Just checked...he has a -0.3 DWAR.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3.../gordon-beckham

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Isn't Beckham's defensive WAR actually negative right now?

 

Just checked...he has a -0.3 DWAR.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3.../gordon-beckham

 

Defensive metric can vary greatly with small sample sizes (less than a year). I know from what I've seen from him this year he has played the position excellently

[Dick Allen]

People forget Beckham was a pretty good hitter the second half of 2010 before breaking his thumb. He hit .310 with a .380 OBP and an .877 OPS. As for his negative defensive WAR, there is a flaw in the system if someone wants to say that's gospel. There is absolutely no way he is below replacement level defensively. I think even the biggest haters would agree with that.

[NorthSideSox72]

Isn't Beckham's defensive WAR actually negative right now?

 

Just checked...he has a -0.3 DWAR.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3.../gordon-beckham

 

...

 

Defensive metric can vary greatly with small sample sizes (less than a year). I know from what I've seen from him this year he has played the position excellently

 

yup, and...

 

As for his negative defensive WAR, there is a flaw in the system if someone wants to say that's gospel. There is absolutely no way he is below replacement level defensively. I think even the biggest haters would agree with that.

 

yup. The idea that Beckham is negative defensively at 2B is just not believable.

 

[LittleHurt05]

Isn't Beckham's defensive WAR actually negative right now?

 

Just checked...he has a -0.3 DWAR.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3.../gordon-beckham

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were discussing this on the Score a few days ago. A chunk of the defensive WAR is based on a player's range. Beckham doesn't necessarily have the greatest range, he doesn't get everything, but what he does get to he catches. From what I understand, that supposed lack of range could have a big effect on his DWAR and be the reason why he is negative?

[southsider2k5]

...

 

 

 

yup, and...

 

 

 

yup. The idea that Beckham is negative defensively at 2B is just not believable.

 

Agreed 100%. There is no way that Gordon's defense has been a net determent to the White Sox this year.

[Y2HH]

Agreed 100%. There is no way that Gordon's defense has been a net determent to the White Sox this year.

 

So let me get this straight...the accepted defensive statistical calculations are ignorable because you and a few others on Soxtalk say so?

[Y2HH]

People forget Beckham was a pretty good hitter the second half of 2010 before breaking his thumb. He hit .310 with a .380 OBP and an .877 OPS. As for his negative defensive WAR, there is a flaw in the system if someone wants to say that's gospel. There is absolutely no way he is below replacement level defensively. I think even the biggest haters would agree with that.

 

The statistic disagrees with that, which is the problem.

 

You may not like dWAR, but it's an accepted calculation at the moment...and it says he's a net -0.4 this year.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

So let me get this straight...the accepted defensive statistical calculations are ignorable because you and a few others on Soxtalk say so?

 

Only if by "you and a few others on Soxtalk" equates to "everyone who understands and uses defensive metrics"

[Y2HH]

Only if by "you and a few others on Soxtalk" equates to "everyone who understands and uses defensive metrics"

 

Except for everyone that uses dWAR, you mean.

[southsider2k5]

Only if by "you and a few others on Soxtalk" equates to "everyone who understands and uses defensive metrics"

 

Any stat has inherent biases.

[Y2HH]

Like many of you, I was a Beckham defender...especially after his debut season...the issue is MLB adapted to Beckham, and Beckham has shown he's unable to adapt in return. It hasn't been a small sample size...it's been three terrible years.

 

It's of my opinion that this team would be better off without him at this point. I'm not a sabermetrics person, so aside from playing devils advocate and bringing up dWAR, the statistic doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is Beckham is a net detriment to this team right now, and has been for a LONG time.

 

Wise has been with the team for what, two weeks? He's already made more of a contribution to the team than Beckham has in 3 years.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Y2HH

[iamshack]

Isn't it partially based on how many balls outside of your zone you get to? Which is entirely dependent on how many balls outside of your zone are actually hit to your position?

 

Maybe that is the old metric...

 

I would like to see our defensive positioning varied a bit...we don't seem to move our fielders around nearly as much as some of the more saber-heavy teams...I wonder if that has something to do with it.

 

Finally, Gordon's arm enables him to make a lot of plays that other 2b's cannot or do not make. I don't know that the current metrics can account for that.

[Balta1701]

Like many of you, I was a Beckham defender...especially after his debut season...the issue is MLB adapted to Beckham, and Beckham has shown he's unable to adapt in return. It hasn't been a small sample size...it's been three terrible years.

 

It's of my opinion that this team would be better off without him at this point. I'm not a sabermetrics person, so aside from playing devils advocate and bringing up dWAR, the statistic doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is Beckham is a net detriment to this team right now, and has been for a LONG time.

 

Wise has been with the team for what, two weeks? He's already made more of a contribution to the team than Beckham has in 3 years.

My response is simple...Beckham is paid $450k right now. He fills a role and has been "Better than Brent Morel", if you want to put it that way.

 

If you have an obviously better option, great, let's try it...but do the cost benefit analysis otherwise. If it costs $5 million to get slightly better production than Beckham, $10 million to get significantly more production, and you have to go with Brent Morel as your starting 3b or Tyler Flowers as your starting C to afford to upgrade over Beckham, are you really getting a good return on that investment?

 

Next year, Beckham will get paid maybe $2 million or so in arbitration, give or take. At that point, then he's starting to cost more, but still gives you the ability to spend money on those other holes. But if his production next year is just like this year, again, by the time he finishes next year then his cost will be high enough that you wouldn't offer him arbitration again.

 

So let's just be annoyed when he's up because of what might have been, but let's really sit down and think about it before we call him a detriment to the team. A guy who is a fill-in level player isn't carrying a team, but if having him there cheaply lets you fill a role with someone more expensive, then he's not a detriment, he's "tolerable" or "a stop-gap" or something like that.

[iamshack]

My response is simple...Beckham is paid $450k right now. He fills a role and has been "Better than Brent Morel", if you want to put it that way.

 

If you have an obviously better option, great, let's try it...but do the cost benefit analysis otherwise. If it costs $5 million to get slightly better production than Beckham, $10 million to get significantly more production, and you have to go with Brent Morel as your starting 3b or Tyler Flowers as your starting C to afford to upgrade over Beckham, are you really getting a good return on that investment?

 

Next year, Beckham will get paid maybe $2 million or so in arbitration, give or take. At that point, then he's starting to cost more, but still gives you the ability to spend money on those other holes. But if his production next year is just like this year, again, by the time he finishes next year then his cost will be high enough that you wouldn't offer him arbitration again.

 

So let's just be annoyed when he's up because of what might have been, but let's really sit down and think about it before we call him a detriment to the team. A guy who is a fill-in level player isn't carrying a team, but if having him there cheaply lets you fill a role with someone more expensive, then he's not a detriment, he's "tolerable" or "a stop-gap" or something like that.

I think you're hitting this nail right on the head.

 

Replacing Gordon is not a priority this year unless something happened which could accomplish that without expending any of our resources.

 

I cannot foresee that occurring.

[southsider2k5]

Isn't it partially based on how many balls outside of your zone you get to? Which is entirely dependent on how many balls outside of your zone are actually hit to your position?

 

Maybe that is the old metric...

 

I would like to see our defensive positioning varied a bit...we don't seem to move our fielders around nearly as much as some of the more saber-heavy teams...I wonder if that has something to do with it.

 

Finally, Gordon's arm enables him to make a lot of plays that other 2b's cannot or do not make. I don't know that the current metrics can account for that.

 

Especially the turn of the double play.

[iamshack]

Especially the turn of the double play.

Fo Sho

[TaylorStSox]

My response is simple...Beckham is paid $450k right now. He fills a role and has been "Better than Brent Morel", if you want to put it that way.

 

If you have an obviously better option, great, let's try it...but do the cost benefit analysis otherwise. If it costs $5 million to get slightly better production than Beckham, $10 million to get significantly more production, and you have to go with Brent Morel as your starting 3b or Tyler Flowers as your starting C to afford to upgrade over Beckham, are you really getting a good return on that investment?

 

Next year, Beckham will get paid maybe $2 million or so in arbitration, give or take. At that point, then he's starting to cost more, but still gives you the ability to spend money on those other holes. But if his production next year is just like this year, again, by the time he finishes next year then his cost will be high enough that you wouldn't offer him arbitration again.

 

So let's just be annoyed when he's up because of what might have been, but let's really sit down and think about it before we call him a detriment to the team. A guy who is a fill-in level player isn't carrying a team, but if having him there cheaply lets you fill a role with someone more expensive, then he's not a detriment, he's "tolerable" or "a stop-gap" or something like that.

What's "slightly better production?" Beckham's been among the worst hitters in baseball for 3 years. He's starting to make Nix look good.

[McDude]

I don't quite get why everyone on here defends the likes of Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham. They're replaceable. Regardless of their defense. The game is won at the plate.

[YASNY]

I don't quite get why everyone on here defends the likes of Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham. They're replaceable. Regardless of their defense. The game is won at the plate.

 

This is so wrong. Pitching and defense wins championships in baseball. Hell, defense wins championships in almost any sport. Besides that, a baserunner prevented and an out registered is equal to getting on base in the offensive side of the game.

[southsider2k5]

I don't quite get why everyone on here defends the likes of Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham. They're replaceable. Regardless of their defense. The game is won at the plate.

 

I can't believe people type this stuff are watching any games this year. The reason the Sox are leading the Tigers is defense. Period. End of story. The Tigers suck at it, and give away lots of runs. The Sox are good at it, and save runs.