NorthSideSox72 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 08:29 AM) Nothing we haven't seen before yet. We're probably about 4 days from the tribune "Beckhams swinging the bat better, changed part x of his swing/did drill y, and is finally on track" article. Actually, it is something we haven't seen before, at least not since his rookie season. He his hitting high-velo fastballs hard in play now. He simply was not doing that before. How that will or will not translate into consistent results, I don't know. But it is an important indicator, in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 08:28 AM) Oh, I love Soxtalk. This is now "not a good thread", because Gordon had a couple of ok games. This MONSTER SERIES brought Gordon's 2nd half OPS up to .587. Versus the typical Soxtalk thread of vultures circling so they can be the first to declare someone a failure and be RIGHT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 09:51 AM) Actually, it is something we haven't seen before, at least not since his rookie season. He his hitting high-velo fastballs hard in play now. He simply was not doing that before. How that will or will not translate into consistent results, I don't know. But it is an important indicator, in my view. I gotta disagree with that. We've seen him turn around fastballs for brief, couple day stretches, more than a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 10:30 AM) I gotta disagree with that. We've seen him turn around fastballs for brief, couple day stretches, more than a few times. I haven't. An individual pitch here or there where he guesses and gets lucky, sure. But this is a stretch of a couple weeks now where I have seen him do it quite a few times. I haven't seen that since 2009. Have you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 04:51 PM) I haven't. An individual pitch here or there where he guesses and gets lucky, sure. But this is a stretch of a couple weeks now where I have seen him do it quite a few times. I haven't seen that since 2009. Have you? He has hit the ball hard. Before they were being caught. He has gotten some nice hits lately and that's good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Alex Gordon was at a similar point at the end of 2010... age wise... production wise. People on fanboards dancing around him with forks. Seeing who could inflict the most damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 11:51 AM) I haven't. An individual pitch here or there where he guesses and gets lucky, sure. But this is a stretch of a couple weeks now where I have seen him do it quite a few times. I haven't seen that since 2009. Have you? Yeah, I feel like most of his brief "Tribune article worthy" spurts have featured him spending 2-3 days doubling to right off the fastball away or pulling the inside fastball over the LF fence. We don't see the positive reactions when he turns around a few breaking balls because people are getting him out with the fastball anyway, so when he has those hot streaks it usually is him hitting the fastball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (scenario @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 10:56 AM) Alex Gordon was at a similar point at the end of 2010... age wise... production wise. People on fanboards dancing around him with forks. Seeing who could inflict the most damage. too bad alex gordon is bad again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (Reddy @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 11:02 AM) too bad alex gordon is bad again. He's nowhere near bad. I'd take him over Viciedo in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 05:34 PM) He's nowhere near bad. I'd take him over Viciedo in a heartbeat. Alex Gordon has a .799 OPS. On the other hand, he was already-developed and the #1 draft pick overall in the country. If Viciedo doesn't put up 30+ homers per season and an 800 OPS at age 25-26-27, it would be pretty surprising. We already know Gordon's upside. We don't with Dayan at the major league level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeynach Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 08:26 AM) As I mentioned earlier, his ability to hit high velo fastballs has been an issue for a couple years... but not so much the past couple weeks. The advanced stats won't tell you that, yet. Use your eyes. We'll see if it sticks, but for now, he's made a good adjustment. Also, I find it hilarious when people throw out gourmet offensive stats, but then decides having a "good glove" is meaningless. Defense is a key part of any player's value to a team (except DH's), and that is amplified in the middle infield. Beckham being above average defensively at 2B has definite value to he team. Want proof of the value of defense? Check out how many more UER the Tigers have given up this year than the Sox... then add to that the even more runs given up on lack of range, etc... and you start to realize that the Tigers are giving up probably close to a half run more per game than the Sox just due to defense. And they are 2 games back, despite their talent. Defense matters. When I am evaluating an individual's value to a team I can't recall the specific analysis (thinking BP) but one analyst looked back at historical numbers and was able to show that a players offensive output (runs created/produced) is about 10x more impactful on his production and value as a player than was his defense, or ability to prevent runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 QUOTE (chw42 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 05:34 PM) He's nowhere near bad. I'd take him over Viciedo in a heartbeat. Well, thank God your name isn't Kenny Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 08:08 PM) Alex Gordon has a .799 OPS. On the other hand, he was already-developed and the #1 draft pick overall in the country. If Viciedo doesn't put up 30+ homers per season and an 800 OPS at age 25-26-27, it would be pretty surprising. We already know Gordon's upside. We don't with Dayan at the major league level. If Viciedo learns to hit right-handers he can have a Carlos Lee-type career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 25, 2012 -> 04:29 PM) If Viciedo learns to hit right-handers he can have a Carlos Lee-type career. Carlos Lee's usually a -10 or more UZR guy, Viciedo's hanging around -3 already, and he's been in that position for 1.5 years. He hits the same level as Lee, he's already a more valuable player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2012 -> 03:39 PM) Carlos Lee's usually a -10 or more UZR guy, Viciedo's hanging around -3 already, and he's been in that position for 1.5 years. He hits the same level as Lee, he's already a more valuable player. Lee as a hitter in his prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Gordon's BABIP is .252 That confirms my theory that when he puts the ball in play, he's got s*** luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 25, 2012 -> 05:32 PM) Gordon's BABIP is .252 That confirms my theory that when he puts the ball in play, he's got s*** luck. I'd go with that being mostly due to weak, weak contact. Can't people take that a step further and look at Ld/gb percentages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 LD rate has been around 20% the last two seasons, but of course he has that absurdly high IFB rate. His BABIP is definitely on the low end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 For example, there are probably 25-30 Rios line-outs or frozen ropes.... Beckham's probably been robbed 10 times this season. A couple of homers taken away at the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 25, 2012 -> 05:32 PM) Gordon's BABIP is .252 That confirms my theory that when he puts the ball in play, he's got s*** luck. Guys who suck have low BABIP. 2009 BABIP .290 avg .270 (difference of 20 points) 2010 BABIP .297 avg .252 (difference of 45 points) 2011 BABIP .276 avg .230 (difference of 46 points) 2012 BABIP .251 avg .229 (difference of 22 points) When his average goes down his BABIP goes down (except 2009-2010). For one season? Yeah bad luck, maybe (BABIP is an over-cited stat for hitters, I think). But for 3 years? Nah that's just suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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