Beckham having a rough second half

[elrockinMT]

I don't quite get why everyone on here defends the likes of Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham. They're replaceable. Regardless of their defense. The game is won at the plate.

 

 

Good pitching negates good hitting and a good defense saves runs from scoring. Having a good bat is certainly a plus but look at Sox history is all you have to do. 1967 with great pitching almost took us to the World Series and 1977 with a good offense but bad pitching led to our downfall. Now having all three is not a bad thing

[McDude]

This is so wrong. Pitching and defense wins championships in baseball. Hell, defense wins championships in almost any sport. Besides that, a baserunner prevented and an out registered is equal to getting on base in the offensive side of the game.

 

Pitching is at the plate. I knew I should have said mound.... If you cannot produce runs and have s*** pitching you do not win games solely on defense. You guys can't say that. Beckham and Alexei are not winning us games solely on their defense!

[balfanman]

This is the first time I've heard that Beckhams range was below standard. I have always heard him described, albeit by Sox announcers, as having exceptional range.

 

In regards to his positioning, it seems to me from listening to the games that he gets to most everything hit his way. A lot of this could be attributed to excellent positioning (even if he has limited range); or bad positioning (with great range). Which is it?

 

On a side note. I am one who rarely gets to see a Sox game and listens to almost all of them on radio. I was on vacation last week and by happenstance, I was walking by a T.V. with a Sox game on. Of course, the one time in over 2 years that I can see a few innings of a game, they are getting blown out by K.C.

[chw42]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they were discussing this on the Score a few days ago. A chunk of the defensive WAR is based on a player's range. Beckham doesn't necessarily have the greatest range, he doesn't get everything, but what he does get to he catches. From what I understand, that supposed lack of range could have a big effect on his DWAR and be the reason why he is negative?

 

This is exactly it.

 

Beckham's range isn't great for a 2B. It's very hard to judge range, but it's easy to judge arm strength. Beckham's got great arm strength for a 2B and I think a lot of people overrate him because of it.

 

In terms of UZR, he's been great in terms of double plays and error runs. This means he does well when he can get to the ball and he turns the double play well. I think everyone can agree on that. But both DRS and UZR think he's negative in terms of range. That's certainly debatable, as I think I've seen Gordon display at least league average range for a 2B, if not above average. He was a positive last year for both UZR and DRS (+5 for UZR, +3 for DRS) and both thought he had above average range.

 

Sample size fluctuations have a lot to do with why he's been considered a below average fielder this year. I still don't believe that assessment is true though.

[southsider2k5]

Pitching is at the plate. I knew I should have said mound.... If you cannot produce runs and have s*** pitching you do not win games solely on defense. You guys can't say that. Beckham and Alexei are not winning us games solely on their defense!

 

Preventing a run from scoring is as productive as driving in a run.

[chw42]

This is the first time I've heard that Beckhams range was below standard. I have always heard him described, albeit by Sox announcers, as having exceptional range.

 

In regards to his positioning, it seems to me from listening to the games that he gets to most everything hit his way. A lot of this could be attributed to excellent positioning (even if he has limited range); or bad positioning (with great range). Which is it?

 

On a side note. I am one who rarely gets to see a Sox game and listens to almost all of them on radio. I was on vacation last week and by happenstance, I was walking by a T.V. with a Sox game on. Of course, the one time in over 2 years that I can see a few innings of a game, they are getting blown out by K.C.

 

Gordon has issues with balls up the middle. He gets to stuff on his left pretty well, but his range up the middle is limited from what I've seen (or remember).

[chw42]

Isn't Beckham's defensive WAR actually negative right now?

 

Just checked...he has a -0.3 DWAR.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3.../gordon-beckham

 

O.o

 

Since when did ESPN start doing their version of WAR? Or are they just copying what the Baseball-Reference database has?

 

Until you know what they model it after, it's not trustworthy at all.

[YASNY]

Gordon has issues with balls up the middle. He gets to stuff on his left pretty well, but his range up the middle is limited from what I've seen (or remember).

 

Maybe, but when he gets there while heading away from 1B, he does have the arm to get some outs.

[McDude]

Preventing a run from scoring is as productive as driving in a run.

 

 

Ask Peavy about runs, I'm sure he'd like to have a few that Ramriez and Gordon replacement MIGHT have produced! How many runs have Ramriez and Beckham produced during one Peavy's losses solely based on their defense?

[Jake]

UZR is meant to have something like a 3 year sample size IIRC.

 

Please stop lumping Alexei Ramirez in with Gordon Beckham. Alexei has been one of the all-around best SS in baseball since entering the league. Even this year in what is by far a career worst season, he's driven in runs at a pace similar to our 4 hitter.

 

WAR by year with Alexei

1.1

2.4

4.3

4.9

0.7 (2012)

 

Find me shortstops that can put a 5 year run like that. If Alexei wants to put together another 1 or fewer WAR season next year, we can start to think about ways to better utilize him.

[southsider2k5]

Ask Peavy about runs, I'm sure he'd like to have a few that Ramriez and Gordon replacement MIGHT have produced! How many runs have Ramriez and Beckham produced during one Peavy's losses solely based on their defense?

 

I guarantee you that if you asked Peavy that question, he would turn it around to how many runs they saved him with their defense. For example, the Tigers have given up 58 unearned runs. The Sox have given up 25. That is a 33 run difference over the season. Divided by where we are in the season, that is about a quarter of a run, PER GAME, difference. That is a huge number. That is the difference between a 4.00 and 3.75 era if the runs were earned. Those are runs that the team doesn't have to score over.

 

That doesn't even begin to count things like runs saved by big defensive plays, the extra pitches put on a starter after an error, having to pitch an extra middle reliever because the starter had to throw an extra 10-15 pitches to pitch over an error, etc.

 

It isn't just offense that matters. Ask the Tigers how that is working out for them.

[StrangeSox]

So let me get this straight...the accepted defensive statistical calculations are ignorable because you and a few others on Soxtalk say so?

 

No one who uses dWAR thinks it's a perfect metric. Sometimes outlier cases like Beckham highlight some internal flaw in the model.

[YASNY]

Ask Peavy about runs, I'm sure he'd like to have a few that Ramriez and Gordon replacement MIGHT have produced! How many runs have Ramriez and Beckham produced during one Peavy's losses solely based on their defense?

 

Who knows? We remember the clutch hits, as a rule, more than the clutch run preventing defensive plays. Just look at the White Sox Winner threads. The offensive stars are always listed, maybe the pitcher. It is only occasionally that a clutch defensive play is recognized.

[Jake]

No one who uses dWAR thinks it's a perfect metric. Sometimes outlier cases like Beckham highlight some internal flaw in the model.

 

That flaw is probably sample size.

[iamshack]

It seems to be that a defensive metric that requires more than an entire year to prove any sort of accuracy is useless in an awful lot of cases.

[Y2HH]

I've read all of your comments and thought about them carefully.

 

...and Beckham still sucks balls.

[Dick Allen]

I've read all of your comments and thought about them carefully.

 

...and Beckham still sucks balls.

You really shouldn't watch games. Just read fangraphs afterward. Its what tells the story. Not what you see on the field. Maybe that's why Sox fans don't attend games much. They are too smart. They realize what you see is false. Its some number someone comes up with that tells the entire story. Forget what you see.... Beckham saving runs. Turning DPs throwing guys out on relays. He isn't replacement level defensively. He's horrible. Fangraphs says so, and they are on the internet so you know its true.

[Y2HH]

You really shouldn't watch games. Just read fangraphs afterward. Its what tells the story. Not what you see on the field. Maybe that's why Sox fans don't attend games much. They are too smart. They realize what you see is false. Its some number someone comes up with that tells the entire story. Forget what you see.... Beckham saving runs. Turning DPs throwing guys out on relays. He isn't replacement level defensively. He's horrible. Fangraphs says so, and they are on the internet so you know its true.

 

You're right. He is horrible, because he's 1/2 of a player. I'm happy for his defense, but that paints an incomplete picture. This is the majors. Not some po-dunk softball league where it doesn't matter how complete of a player you are. Beckham is, to an absurd degree, a black hole in our offense...he's as close to a "free out" as you could be.

 

I wouldn't even complain if he was totally average, or even slightly below average offensively. But it's worse than that. Much worse. I could easily deal with a slightly below offensive player if their defense makes up for it...but he's so below average on offense, it's insane. If he bats 4 times per game...that's around 3 free outs for the other team (or, a totally free inning.) To me, that's unacceptable considering the league we're talking about...which is the majors.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Y2HH

[southsider2k5]

You're right. He is horrible, because he's 1/2 of a player. I'm happy for his defense, but that paints an incomplete picture. This is the majors. Not some po-dunk softball league where it doesn't matter how complete of a player you are. Beckham is, to an absurd degree, a black hole in our offense...he's as close to a "free out" as you could be.

 

I wouldn't even complain if he was totally average, or even slightly below average offensively. But it's worse than that. Much worse. I could easily deal with a slightly below offensive player if their defense makes up for it...but he's so below average on offense, it's insane. If he bats 4 times per game...that's around 3 free outs for the other team (or, a totally free inning.) To me, that's unacceptable considering the league we're talking about...which is the majors.

 

Hint: in four AB's most big leaguers are going to make three outs.

[Jake]

Let's wait for his next 0-fer before we freak out again.

[Y2HH]

Hint: in four AB's most big leaguers are going to make three outs.

 

Ok, for 5 at bats he will be out 4 or 5 times. With 6, he will be out 5 or 6. Most players don't keep scaling down like that...he does. Not to mention, he does it almost every night.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Y2HH

[chw42]

Let's wait for his next 0-fer before we freak out again.

 

We should all keep bashing him, it's working.

[chw42]

Gordon sure has had a low BABIP these past few years despite a line drive % around 20%. .276 last year, .251 this year.

 

He's also hit less infield flies this year, so his BABIP should be up, not down.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Ok, for 5 at bats he will be out 4 or 5 times. With 6, he will be out 5 or 6. Most players don't keep scaling down like that...he does. Not to mention, he does it almost every night.

 

Except that's not true.

 

And your precious stats confirm that.

[Y2HH]

Except that's not true.

 

And your precious stats confirm that.

 

.230 .283 .361

 

Actually, they do confirm it. He hits safely less just 23% of the time. What's worse, he gets on base only 28% of the time.

 

He's one of the worst hitters in baseball.

 

Period.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Y2HH