Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:18 PM) really, no it coudln't have been. Kevin Youkilis was coming in to replace some of the worst production in the big leagues. This counts both offense and defense. Morel couldn't hit or field with his back problems, Hudson was marginally better with the bat but was costing games in the field even more than Morel. Beckham is also some of the worst production in the bigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:20 PM) Beckham is also some of the worst production in the bigs. And this is why we scoff at your opinion. We got a .420 OPS out of Morel and a .516 OPS out of Hudson. With crap for defense on top of that. You literally can upgrade that by just grabbing anyone who's available and seeing what they can do. Gordon Beckham would have been a huge upgrade on what we got from those 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:17 PM) The problem is, since around 2006 on Soxtalk, when it comes to baseball discussion, nobodies opinions are accepted as mere opinions...they're accepted as correct OR incorrect. Then perhaps you shouldn't end your "opinion" statements with absolutes like this: All of that garbage aside, here is what I'm saying: he's bad offensively. Are you saying he's not? It's a yes or no question. Or this: Oh, just shut up. Beckham sucks. Or this: He's one of the worst hitters in baseball. Period. You will get much better discussion if you treat your opinions as... opinions. Seems you are frustrated by your own posting style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:23 PM) And this is why we scoff at your opinion. We got a .420 OPS out of Morel and a .516 OPS out of Hudson. With crap for defense on top of that. You literally can upgrade that by just grabbing anyone who's available and seeing what they can do. Gordon Beckham would have been a huge upgrade on what we got from those 2. Taking two guys worse than Beckham doen't make Beckham suddenly good. Scoff at my opinion? Why, because Morel was worse? No s***. That still doesn't make Beckham good. This is why I scoff at your opinion, because it's baseless. You take really stinky s*** and compare it to slightly less stinky s*** in order to make a point? Seriously? Try harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:25 PM) Then perhaps you shouldn't end your "opinion" statements with absolutes like this: Or this: Or this: You will get much better discussion if you treat your opinions as... opinions. Seems you are frustrated by your own posting style. Um...those are opinions, and if I feel like stating my opinions as absolutes, I'm free to do so. The point is they're opinions, and you don't have to agree with them, even if I ask. Let's give it a try. Gordon Beckham sucks...do you agree? It's a yes or no question. It's ok if you say no. See how that works? Edited August 22, 2012 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:26 PM) Gordon Beckham sucks...do you agree? It's a yes or no question. Totally disagree and have very little respect for people who agree, and will be happy to overwhelm them with numbers about why they're wrong. See how that works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:29 PM) Totally disagree and have very little respect for people who agree, and will be happy to overwhelm them with numbers about why they're wrong. See how that works? Yes, I see how that works, only unlike you, I'm ok with it! Now...do it. Give me numbers as to why Beckham is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) Yes, I see how that works, only unlike you, I'm ok with it! Now...do it. Give me numbers as to why Beckham is awesome. Why does "it's ridiculous to say he sucks" = "He's awesome". Saying he's awesome is just as ridiculous as saying he sucks. I'd be happy to dump a boatload of numbers on anyone who spouts that also. Of course, we only have 1 side represented here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 You don't even have to strive for awesome... just give us some numbers as to why Gordon Beckham doesn't suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:31 PM) Why does "it's ridiculous to say he sucks" = "He's awesome". Saying he's awesome is just as ridiculous as saying he sucks. I'd be happy to dump a boatload of numbers on anyone who spouts that also. Of course, we only have 1 side represented here. Ok, you got me there...point made. He doesn't have to be awesome. He's not even good. No, he's not even average. In the last THREE years, he's posted this : .249avg .318obp .386slb .704ops. These numbers included his rookie season from 2009-2011...they're incorrect. He's not even posted .700 in any of he last three seasons. 2010: .695ops 2011: .633ops 2012: .644ops I know it's just my opinion...but that SUCKS. Edited August 22, 2012 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 11:05 AM) My response is simple...Beckham is paid $450k right now. He fills a role and has been "Better than Brent Morel", if you want to put it that way. If you have an obviously better option, great, let's try it...but do the cost benefit analysis otherwise. If it costs $5 million to get slightly better production than Beckham, $10 million to get significantly more production, and you have to go with Brent Morel as your starting 3b or Tyler Flowers as your starting C to afford to upgrade over Beckham, are you really getting a good return on that investment? Next year, Beckham will get paid maybe $2 million or so in arbitration, give or take. At that point, then he's starting to cost more, but still gives you the ability to spend money on those other holes. But if his production next year is just like this year, again, by the time he finishes next year then his cost will be high enough that you wouldn't offer him arbitration again. So let's just be annoyed when he's up because of what might have been, but let's really sit down and think about it before we call him a detriment to the team. A guy who is a fill-in level player isn't carrying a team, but if having him there cheaply lets you fill a role with someone more expensive, then he's not a detriment, he's "tolerable" or "a stop-gap" or something like that. QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) Right now, the average #9 hitter in the AL has an OPS of .640. Beckham has been better than that. He's among the worst hitters in baseball if you're compiling the 100 or so worst position playing hitters in baseball and excluding pitchers. This thread exists in the first place because Gordon was supposed to be better than this. He was supposed to be the golden boy. He was supposed to be hitting .300 with 25 HR ever year. He's not. So, rather than focus on what he actually is doing, which is filling a hole cheaply, it's much more fun to say things like "He sucks!". QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:38 PM) Since Y2HH is passing and just blaming KW anyway...can someone else help him out here? I'm looking for a 2b or middle infielder who has moved this year who would be a substantial upgrade from Beckham and come with limited or no cost. Heck, you can add 2011 onto that list also. The only starting 2b in the league who I can recognize that moved anywhere this year was Infante, and the Tigers gave up a top pitching prospect for him and Anibal Sanchez. The Shortstops I can see who moved were Stephen Drew and Hanley Ramirez. Drew was cheap but has been hurt and is pretty much regarded as a bust himself, HanRam has a very high price. Here's the list of free agents last offseason. Guys signing for close to the minimum include Theriot, Jeff Keppinger, Omar Vizquel, Jack Wilson, Drew Sutton, Aaron Miles, Will Rhymes, Jose Lopez (already got him), Adam Kennedy, Bill Hall, Carlos Guillen, Brooks Conrad, Andres Blanco. Guys who signed at $3-4 million a year, "goodbye AJ" money, include Mark Ellis and Jamey Carroll. Please, enlighten me where this magical upgrade you envision would come from. QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:23 PM) And this is why we scoff at your opinion. We got a .420 OPS out of Morel and a .516 OPS out of Hudson. With crap for defense on top of that. You literally can upgrade that by just grabbing anyone who's available and seeing what they can do. Gordon Beckham would have been a huge upgrade on what we got from those 2. QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:32 PM) You don't even have to strive for awesome... just give us some numbers as to why Gordon Beckham doesn't suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:33 PM) Ok, you got me there...point made. He doesn't have to be awesome. He's not even good. No, he's not even average. In the last THREE years, he's posted this : .249avg .318obp .386slb .704ops. I know it's just my opinion...but that SUCKS. His OPS hasn't even approached .700 the last three seasons, so your numbers can't be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I feel so overwhelmed with your total lack of numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Saying "Gordon Beckham is better than Brent Morel" is in no way proving he does not suck. Also, quoting yourself like you're some big pimp is super duper lame-o. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:33 PM) Ok, you got me there...point made. He doesn't have to be awesome. He's not even good. No, he's not even average. In the last THREE years, he's posted this : .249avg .318obp .386slb .704ops. I know it's just my opinion...but that SUCKS. The average 2b in major league baseball this year has posted a .696 OPS. Gordon Beckham's numbers over that stretch would make him basically an average offensive 2b in baseball this year. Last year the average 2b put up a .708 OPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:34 PM) His OPS hasn't even approached .700 the last three seasons, so your numbers can't be right. Wait, you're right...thanks for pointing that out. That 3 year span is 2009-2011...that's not 2010-2012...he's even worse now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) The average 2b in major league baseball this year has posted a .696 OPS. Gordon Beckham's numbers over that stretch would make him basically an average offensive 2b in baseball this year. Last year the average 2b put up a .708 OPS. And last year Beckham posted a .633 ops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:35 PM) Saying "Gordon Beckham is better than Brent Morel" is in no way proving he does not suck. Also, quoting yourself like you're some big pimp is super duper lame-o. Like I said before...Gordon Beckham is perfectly adequate at doing what he needs to do...which is not be awful, fill the 2b hole, play some decent defense, and be cheap. He won't be able to do that 2 years from now, but for some reason, adequate = sucks in your guys eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RZZZA Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) wait a sec, morel was crap on defense? I thought that was his one saving grace Edited August 22, 2012 by RZZZA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:37 PM) Like I said before...Gordon Beckham is perfectly adequate at doing what he needs to do...which is not be awful, fill the 2b hole, play some decent defense, and be cheap. He won't be able to do that 2 years from now, but for some reason, adequate = sucks in your guys eyes. ...and this year Beckham's ops is .644. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (RZZZA @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) wait a sec, morel was crap on defense? I thought that was his one saving grace This year he was bad. Not Hudson bad, but pretty bad. You're right he's supposed to be a solid defender, but back injuries aren't easy to deal with and he played through it for > a month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:29 PM) Totally disagree and have very little respect for people who agree, and will be happy to overwhelm them with numbers about why they're wrong. See how that works? I've been so overwhelmed with this total lack of numbers you've provided me. So far, I've posted his OPS from the last 2 years showing it's WAY below what the average 2B has posted...and you've ignored them. You should pick better opinions to scoff at from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) The average 2b in major league baseball this year has posted a .696 OPS. Gordon Beckham's numbers over that stretch would make him basically an average offensive 2b in baseball this year. Last year the average 2b put up a .708 OPS. WTF you don't even read your posts. First, his numbers were wrong. Ok, so if this year, the average 2B is putting up a .696 OPS, how is that proving that Gordon Beckham at a .644 doesn't suck? How does that excuse Gordon's .633 last season when the league average 2b rocked a .708? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:37 PM) Like I said before...Gordon Beckham is perfectly adequate at doing what he needs to do...which is not be awful, fill the 2b hole, play some decent defense, and be cheap. He won't be able to do that 2 years from now, but for some reason, adequate = sucks in your guys eyes. But he has been awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) (This is the portion of the argument where Balta disappears. I've seen it before. We call this the "Balta Bail".) Edited August 22, 2012 by Steve9347 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.