Dick Allen Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 If Beckham can get himself to get 1 more single per every 14 ABs than what he's currently doing over the course of a season, he'll be a .300 hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Look, I didn't mean to cause a firestorm in here...and I know, for some reason I seem to have a tendency to cause a ruckas...but I maintain my opinion that Beckham is a detriment to this team with this .644 OPS (which is up from last years dismal .633 OPS). He's statistically one of the worst 2B in all of baseball. I didn't mean to cause fights by stating that opinion. All of you are free to continue loving your blessed "Bacon". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RZZZA Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Gordon has been awful offensively, I'm sure we'll all agree. But as long as other guys step up I don't mind it for this year. If Wise, and Flowers and Danks keep jacking bombs...Gordons little miscues don't bother me so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:47 PM) for some reason I seem to have a tendency to cause a ruckas... [...] All of you are free to continue loving your blessed "Bacon". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Konerko, AJP, Peavy, Thome, Contreras, Dye, Crede, Uribe, Viciedo, Buerhle, Garland, Garcia, Danks, Rios, Dunn just a few players a good part of Soxtalk (me included in a couple) has written off at some point since I've been around. Now its Beckham. This is good news for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:44 PM) (This is the portion of the argument where Balta disappears. I've seen it before. We call this the "Balta Bail".) Will bite tongue on responding to this the way it deserves, which involves a whole lot of profanity. If you just want to go to the basics...right now, fWAR has Gordon Beckham as a...replacement level player. That makes him below average yes...but as I keep pointing out, replacement level players have their utility. In the bWAR world, Beckham has been slightly below average, but that's because of the defensive metric already referred to in this thread, defensive runs saved, whcih no one is buying. He's actually slightly above replacement player level in bWAR at his position with the bats. There are currently 5 2b in the bigs with >250 PA's who have produced lower OPS numbers than Beckham. 3 of them are currently on contending teams. 2 of them are guys who I listed out of people being paid more than 2x what Beckham is being paid who were available as free agents earlier this year. Yes, better options than Beckham have been available. However, they've either been part timers who have had great seasons, or they've cost more than Beckham, and thus would have required shedding additional salary (bye AJ). If this is who Gordon Beckham is, he will have another year with the Sox after this one and he'll wind up as a journeyman/part timer. If your guys standard for players who suck is that, then I contend you have a wide standard for players who suck. I count 31 regular players, with >250 PA's, who have lower OPS values than Beckham, again including guys who would have been available as his likely replacement. There are some solid names in there, names people have floated as guys the Sox could look at for other positions, like Olivo, Ian Stewart, Yunel Escobar, Damon, Justin Smoak, Kurt Suzuki. If your standard for guys who suck includes that whole list of players, that's fine, but it's become a useless definition born not out of the guy's actual performance, but out of the fact that you wanted better from him and didn't get it. And I'm sorry if "typing more than a sentence long insult" takes more time than you have available in your day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) Will bite tongue on responding to this the way it deserves, which involves a whole lot of profanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) Konerko, AJP, Peavy, Thome, Contreras, Dye, Crede, Uribe, Viciedo, Buerhle, Garland, Garcia, Danks, Rios, Dunn just a few players a good part of Soxtalk (me included in a couple) has written off at some point since I've been around. Now its Beckham. This is good news for him. I have to say, this is a great point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) Konerko, AJP, Peavy, Thome, Contreras, Dye, Crede, Uribe, Viciedo, Buerhle, Garland, Garcia, Danks, Rios, Dunn just a few players a good part of Soxtalk (me included in a couple) has written off at some point since I've been around. Now its Beckham. This is good news for him. Where's the list of players Soxtalk has written off that have remained bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 02:57 PM) Will bite tongue on responding to this the way it deserves, which involves a whole lot of profanity. If you just want to go to the basics...right now, fWAR has Gordon Beckham as a...replacement level player. That makes him below average yes...but as I keep pointing out, replacement level players have their utility. In the bWAR world, Beckham has been slightly below average, but that's because of the defensive metric already referred to in this thread, defensive runs saved, whcih no one is buying. He's actually slightly above replacement player level in bWAR at his position with the bats. There are currently 5 2b in the bigs with >250 PA's who have produced lower OPS numbers than Beckham. 3 of them are currently on contending teams. 2 of them are guys who I listed out of people being paid more than 2x what Beckham is being paid who were available as free agents earlier this year. Yes, better options than Beckham have been available. However, they've either been part timers who have had great seasons, or they've cost more than Beckham, and thus would have required shedding additional salary (bye AJ). If this is who Gordon Beckham is, he will have another year with the Sox after this one and he'll wind up as a journeyman/part timer. If your guys standard for players who suck is that, then I contend you have a wide standard for players who suck. I count 31 regular players, with >250 PA's, who have lower OPS values than Beckham, again including guys who would have been available as his likely replacement. There are some solid names in there, names people have floated as guys the Sox could look at for other positions, like Olivo, Ian Stewart, Yunel Escobar, Damon, Justin Smoak, Kurt Suzuki. If your standard for guys who suck includes that whole list of players, that's fine, but it's become a useless definition born not out of the guy's actual performance, but out of the fact that you wanted better from him and didn't get it. And I'm sorry if "typing more than a sentence long insult" takes more time than you have available in your day. You make great points above. None of them, however, disparage the notion that Gordon Beckham sucks. WOW! 5 2b's with Lower OPS (one was just optioned to the minors, Jemile Weeks). What about the 24 in the league who are better. He sucks, it's plain and simple. Sorry about the joke about you disappearing. You've certainly done that before, but this time you at least took the time to craft a very long response that didn't really prove you correct. And yes - Ian Stewart, Yunel Escobar, Justin Smoak, and Johnny Damon suck fat balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:09 PM) Where's the list of players Soxtalk has written off that have remained bad? It crashed my PC it was so large. I got to Danny Richa... and it just went black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Gordon has not been good offensively. No one can dispute that. What Balta is pointing out is you have to prioritize your offseason decisions, and at a traditionally weak offensive position, and considering the defense Gordon seems to play at 2b, replacing him is a fairly low priority. We've got big decisions to make in the starting rotation, as well as at 3b and catcher. Chances are, we will not have adequate resources to make a significant upgrade at 2b; that would be more of a luxury for our Club right now, considering the other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:09 PM) You make great points above. None of them, however, disparage the notion that Gordon Beckham sucks. WOW! 5 2b's with Lower OPS (one was just optioned to the minors, Jemile Weeks). What about the 24 in the league who are better. He sucks, it's plain and simple. Sorry about the joke about you disappearing. You've certainly done that before, but this time you at least took the time to craft a very long response that didn't really prove you correct. And yes - Ian Stewart, Yunel Escobar, Justin Smoak, and Johnny Damon suck fat balls. Yes. Just because players were once good, doesn't mean they still are. Those listed are terribad...just like Beckham is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 04:09 PM) You make great points above. None of them, however, disparage the notion that Gordon Beckham sucks. WOW! 5 2b's with Lower OPS (one was just optioned to the minors, Jemile Weeks). What about the 24 in the league who are better. He sucks, it's plain and simple. Sorry about the joke about you disappearing. You've certainly done that before, but this time you at least took the time to craft a very long response that didn't really prove you correct. And yes - Ian Stewart, Yunel Escobar, Justin Smoak, and Johnny Damon suck fat balls. Again, notice the last point. Gordon Beckham is at the very least still out-performing his salary. You can put together a winning team with the #4 offense in the AL with Gordon Beckham at 2b (and that's with the 1/3 of a season debacle we had at 3b as well). If your definition of saying that a player sucks includes that level of performance, then to me, your definition of suckiness has no meaning. Rather, it's just getting used on a guy you're frustrated with for his lack of development. If this is who Gordon Beckham is, then it's tolerable. We can win with Gordon Beckham being the #9 hitter and doing this. He'd actually be a better-than-average #9 hitter in the AL these days. I can live with that for another year. We have other needs that are bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:13 PM) Again, notice the last point. Gordon Beckham is at the very least still out-performing his salary. You can put together a winning team with the #4 offense in the AL with Gordon Beckham at 2b (and that's with the 1/3 of a season debacle we had at 3b as well). If your definition of saying that a player sucks includes that level of performance, then to me, your definition of suckiness has no meaning. Rather, it's just getting used on a guy you're frustrated with for his lack of development. If this is who Gordon Beckham is, then it's tolerable. We can win with Gordon Beckham being the #9 hitter and doing this. He'd actually be a better-than-average #9 hitter in the AL these days. I can live with that for another year. We have other needs that are bigger. Yes. We can live with him. He also sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:12 PM) Gordon has not been good offensively. No one can dispute that. What Balta is pointing out is you have to prioritize your offseason decisions, and at a traditionally weak offensive position, and considering the defense Gordon seems to play at 2b, replacing him is a fairly low priority. We've got big decisions to make in the starting rotation, as well as at 3b and catcher. Chances are, we will not have adequate resources to make a significant upgrade at 2b; that would be more of a luxury for our Club right now, considering the other issues. I don't disagree with what you're saying here and agree with that summary of Balta's point, but he's taking it a step farther and trying to justify Gordon's horrendous offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:09 PM) Where's the list of players Soxtalk has written off that have remained bad? There are probably 5 or 6 posters who if you listed who or what they thought didn't suck White Sox related, the list would be maybe 2 names/things long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 09:13 PM) Again, notice the last point. Gordon Beckham is at the very least still out-performing his salary. You can put together a winning team with the #4 offense in the AL with Gordon Beckham at 2b (and that's with the 1/3 of a season debacle we had at 3b as well). If your definition of saying that a player sucks includes that level of performance, then to me, your definition of suckiness has no meaning. Rather, it's just getting used on a guy you're frustrated with for his lack of development. If this is who Gordon Beckham is, then it's tolerable. We can win with Gordon Beckham being the #9 hitter and doing this. He'd actually be a better-than-average #9 hitter in the AL these days. I can live with that for another year. We have other needs that are bigger. But, Balta they all want Babe Ruth clones 1-9 and Sandy Koufax 1-5 in the starting rotation. Plus in the remote chance we will need a relief pitcher they want Mariano Rivera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 09:18 PM) There are probably 5 or 6 posters who if you listed who or what they thought didn't suck White Sox related, the list would be maybe 2 names/things long. It's a sad thing to think about but you are right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 22, 2012 -> 03:18 PM) There are probably 5 or 6 posters who if you listed who or what they thought didn't suck White Sox related, the list would be maybe 2 names/things long. I think that's incredibly inaccurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MurcieOne Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Not a good thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RZZZA Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Gordon hit the ball hard 3 times tonight. He looked a lot better offensively in this entire series against the Yanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Yes dWAR, Gordon Beckham has no range, and is a negative fielder. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/mlb/gameda...05&c_id=cws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Oh, I love Soxtalk. This is now "not a good thread", because Gordon had a couple of ok games. This MONSTER SERIES brought Gordon's 2nd half OPS up to .587. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 QUOTE (RZZZA @ Aug 23, 2012 -> 12:43 AM) Gordon hit the ball hard 3 times tonight. He looked a lot better offensively in this entire series against the Yanks Nothing we haven't seen before yet. We're probably about 4 days from the tribune "Beckhams swinging the bat better, changed part x of his swing/did drill y, and is finally on track" article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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