CTU is Going on Strike

[StrangeSox]

What do they WANT for teacher evaluations? They don't want to be judged on student outcomes. They don't want to be judged by administrators.

 

They don't want to be tied too strongly to unproven standardized tests that may or may not accurately measure specific metrics of "student outcomes" and have margins of error of +/- 50%.

 

So what's the solution? Self-assessments? I'm doing a wonderful job!

 

Thanks to the Chicago Tonight segments, I know that part of it would be peer evaluations. I believe both sides agree on that and having the standardized testing be a part of it as well, it's just a matter of how much and how rigidly.

 

I'm not opposed to teacher evaluations, but first you have to show that you're actually evaluating what you think you are and why that's the most appropriate thing to evaluate. For instance, the new Common Core testing evaluates how much knowledge a student gains in a year but doesn't really assess cognitive or learning ability enhancement. Is 1-year knowledge gain a good metric? Is it a good metric in all schools? Is it being accurately measured? Before my performance was 50% tied to that, I'd want those all firmly answered.

[StrangeSox]

This is from another teach friend of mine (but who does not work for CPS and is not on strike):

 

"I eat, breath, and sleep teaching. Love that i'm living my dream but I'm physically and mentally exhausted. Thinking of just moving into my classroom since I don't leave until 5:30 anyways. The sad life of a first year teacher."

 

5:30!?!?!? Wow. That must be rough.

 

How early do they get there?

 

edit: 5:30 for a first-year teacher (if they're done with class around 3) doesn't seem that late from my anecdotal knowledge

Edited September 12, 2012 by StrangeSox

[CrimsonWeltall]

They don't want to be tied too strongly to unproven standardized tests that may or may not accurately measure specific metrics of "student outcomes" and have margins of error of +/- 50%.

 

That's a legit beef. But I want to know exactly what they want it to be, not what they don't want it to be.

 

Thanks to the Chicago Tonight segments, I know that part of it would be peer evaluations. I believe both sides agree on that and having the standardized testing be a part of it as well, it's just a matter of how much and how rigidly.

 

Peer evaluations? That sounds like a recipe for 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours'.

[Soxbadger]

Whose merit? Is cost the best metric? Should we really be pursuing policies that allow administrators to fire older, experienced teachers and replace them with younger ones? To get that sort of replacement effect, wouldn't you need to seriously drive down the average wages of teachers? That doesn't seem like the best way to get a competent and capable workforce.

 

I don't know their exact opposition, but I'm guessing that they fear administrators using lay-offs as a way to get around tenure protection. "lay off" a bunch of teachers, then only hire some of them back while replacing them with other people.

 

Its not easy to quantify a good teacher versus a bad teacher, but its like pornography, I know them when I see them. I have dealt with plenty of teacher grievances and I have won for many teachers who I would not trust to teach my cat.

 

I dont know if we should be pursuing policies to allow the administration to fire older teachers and hire new ones. I do know that it seems backwards to simply say more experience is always better.

 

I think that since the taxpayers are footing the bills, that there should be an independent evaluation, not by peers, not by administrators, but by average humans who are actually paying the freight.

 

That doesnt seem to unreasonable to me.

 

 

[Balta1701]

This is from another teach friend of mine (but who does not work for CPS and is not on strike):

 

"I eat, breath, and sleep teaching. Love that i'm living my dream but I'm physically and mentally exhausted. Thinking of just moving into my classroom since I don't leave until 5:30 anyways. The sad life of a first year teacher."

 

5:30!?!?!? Wow. That must be rough.

What time does the person arrive in the morning?

[StrangeSox]

Here's CPS's evaluation proposal from March

http://www.cps.edu/SiteCollectionDocuments...nalProposal.pdf

 

I believe the peer evaluation was to be performed by the "Mentor Teachers," so the "you scratch (stab) my back, I'll scratch (stab) yours" wouldn't really apply.

 

I can't find a CTU proposal for teacher evaluation, but the concerns were discussed on Chicago Tonight (no I won't shut up about it, they were good segments!)

[Balta1701]

That's a legit beef. But I want to know exactly what they want it to be, not what they don't want it to be.

The real problem is that there's nothing out there I've seen that really gives a good, fair, overarching scale by which teacher performance actually can be judged. The teachers might not have a good answer to your question, but when no one has that answer, does that mean they should settle for a bad answer to it?

[StrangeSox]

Its not easy to quantify a good teacher versus a bad teacher, but its like pornography, I know them when I see them. I have dealt with plenty of teacher grievances and I have won for many teachers who I would not trust to teach my cat.

 

I dont know if we should be pursuing policies to allow the administration to fire older teachers and hire new ones. I do know that it seems backwards to simply say more experience is always better.

 

I think that since the taxpayers are footing the bills, that there should be an independent evaluation, not by peers, not by administrators, but by average humans who are actually paying the freight.

 

That doesnt seem to unreasonable to me.

 

I disagree completely that "taxpayers" should have any direct input on the evaluation of teachers beyond the normal interactions with teachers and administration. Having non-experts who are not familiar with the field judge your performance seems really unreasonable.

[southsider2k5]

I don't care where they find the money, but they need to stop finding it in the form of tax increases.

 

IL/Chicago has the highest effective taxes in the nation now...and after the recent tax hikes in both areas, in almost everything they could find to tax, my local taxes have more than DOUBLED over the course of a year. Easy to say when you aren't the ones paying it...but I am. My income tax DOUBLED. What I pay on my house DOUBLED. We aren't talking a few bucks here...but thousands per year. With the highest taxes in the nation, they should be able to fix these issues without further taxation, it's gotten out of hand.

 

My family now has about 5,000 LESS because of these recent increases...and what have they fixed?

 

Not a single f***ing thing.

 

So to anyone who suggests even more taxes/fees...f*** you right in the face.

 

In 2010, the top funding per student of any state/territory in the country was Washington DC at over $18,000 per kid. Anyone want to tell me that DC has the best students in the country? Chicago is already spending $15,800 per student, per year. The overlapping private schools are under $9000 per kid in Chicago.

[StrangeSox]

The real problem is that there's nothing out there I've seen that really gives a good, fair, overarching scale by which teacher performance actually can be judged. The teachers might not have a good answer to your question, but when no one has that answer, does that mean they should settle for a bad answer to it?

 

I think that's their position: they are open to using these metrics, just not at the (eventually) 50% level they'll reach by the end of the proposed contract.

[southsider2k5]

What do they WANT for teacher evaluations? They don't want to be judged on student outcomes. They don't want to be judged by administrators.

 

So what's the solution? Self-assessments? I'm doing a wonderful job!

 

And they want it to be impossible to do anything based on those evaluations.

[StrangeSox]

In 2010, the top funding per student of any state/territory in the country was Washington DC at over $18,000 per kid. Anyone want to tell me that DC has the best students in the country? Chicago is already spending $15,800 per student, per year. The overlapping private schools are under $9000 per kid in Chicago.

 

Private schools do not have to take special needs children that substantially drive up per-pupil costs. That's one way they get their numbers to look good in comparison.

[StrangeSox]

And they want it to be impossible to do anything based on those evaluations.

 

Because we don't really know what's being measured nor how precisely nor if it's the best indicator of teacher performance and merit.

[southsider2k5]

I disagree completely that "taxpayers" should have any direct input on the evaluation of teachers beyond the normal interactions with teachers and administration. Having non-experts who are not familiar with the field judge your performance seems really unreasonable.

 

It is also much more likely to happen as education has moved from local to nationally based.

[southsider2k5]

Private schools do not have to take special needs children that substantially drive up per-pupil costs. That's one way they get their numbers to look good in comparison.

 

What percentage of the costs is that?

[Soxbadger]

I disagree completely that "taxpayers" should have any direct input on the evaluation of teachers beyond the normal interactions with teachers and administration. Having non-experts who are not familiar with the field judge your performance seems really unreasonable.

 

Yep, I am completely unfamiliar with teachers. I only spent 21 years of life in schools, spent over $250k on education. I have no experience to say, this teacher is competent and that teacher is not. Im sure that it would be impossible to find 3-5 ex-educators who have no relation to CTU/CPS who live in Chicago, who would be impartial.

 

Right from your proposal:

 

Mentor Teachers will be CPS employees.

 

Why do we need conflicts of interest? Why cant we just get impartial people? You act like Im suggesting to hire a random person off the street. I just want people who are not connected to CPS or CTU.

 

[StrangeSox]

Not sure. Can you source your data for the Chicago per-pupil costs and the private per-pupil costs?

[ptatc]

That's because they borrowed billions from the pensions and gambled it away...and now they have insolvent guaranteed public pensions they need to fix.

 

So, they raise taxes on the state/local level through the roof, and it can't even make a dent in the problem they created, so they start taking it from everywhere else, too...such as schools.

 

And IL/Chicago residents will continue to re-elect them.

The part about the State of Illinois being one of the lowest with funding education is somewhat misleading. Most states collect property taxes and distribute them fairly evenly to school districts while illinois has the property taxes go straight to the school districts in the area. So this makes it look like the state doesn't contribute much compared to other while in reality is just the way it is distributed is different. We don't really have less funding it's just that we have rich school districts and poor school districts.

[MurcieOne]

The first year of the new evaluations would only attribute 25% to the test scores. Those same tests were developed by CPS teachers, via negotiations with the CTU. The test are the typical standardized tests either, they were developed to give a more complete view of the students progress. They wouldn't even begin implementing the new system until the 2nd year of the new CBA.

 

Thanks to the Chicago Tonight segments, I know that part of it would be peer evaluations. I believe both sides agree on that and having the standardized testing be a part of it as well, it's just a matter of how much and how rigidly.

 

The current evaluation system is over 40 years old. It includes, I believe, a form that the students fill out that rate the teachers. In 2007, 98% of the teachers rated out as distinguished or above average.

 

I'm not opposed to teacher evaluations, but first you have to show that you're actually evaluating what you think you are and why that's the most appropriate thing to evaluate. For instance, the new Common Core testing evaluates how much knowledge a student gains in a year but doesn't really assess cognitive or learning ability enhancement. Is 1-year knowledge gain a good metric? Is it a good metric in all schools? Is it being accurately measured? Before my performance was 50% tied to that, I'd want those all firmly answered.

 

The 25% would go up by 5% increments up until it reaches (I think) 40%. Florida uses the test scores for 50% of evaluation. NYC uses a similar number AND posts the numbers to the public. The metric the CPS would be using would include three parts, the test, student feedback, and principal observation.

[Balta1701]

The part about the State of Illinois being one of the lowest with funding education is somewhat misleading. Most states collect property taxes and distribute them fairly evenly to school districts while illinois has the property taxes go straight to the school districts in the area. So this makes it look like the state doesn't contribute much compared to other while in reality is just the way it is distributed is different. We don't really have less funding it's just that we have rich school districts and poor school districts.

But that sets up this issue in Chicago entirely because it leaves no mechanism for redistribution from wealthy districts to poor districts, and as has been noted previously, the CPS area is one of the most poverty-ridden school districts in the country, with nearly 90% of its students qualifying for the federal free/reduced price meal programs.

[ptatc]

Yep, I am completely unfamiliar with teachers. I only spent 21 years of life in schools, spent over $250k on education. I have no experience to say, this teacher is competent and that teacher is not. Im sure that it would be impossible to find 3-5 ex-educators who have no relation to CTU/CPS who live in Chicago, who would be impartial.

 

Right from your proposal:

 

Mentor Teachers will be CPS employees.

 

Why do we need conflicts of interest? Why cant we just get impartial people? You act like Im suggesting to hire a random person off the street. I just want people who are not connected to CPS or CTU.

Imagine the uproar for the cost of this program. Hiring people not connected with the schools to evaluate the individual teachers. It sounds good but it just adds to the administrative costs to the schools. Why take more money away from actual teaching. Just use a team of admin and teachers and be done with it. The problem is that there is too much money going to non-instructional purposes already.

[Balta1701]

What percentage of the costs is that?

Pulling together data from 2 or 3 sources, found a court case that suggested ~10% of the students in chicago public schools in the 90's could be classified as special needs, and a different source suggested that nationwide on average a special needs student costs 1.9x as much as a non-special-needs student.

[NorthSideSox72]

Not sure. Can you source your data for the Chicago per-pupil costs and the private per-pupil costs?

Yeah, I have a real hard time believing there are many, if any, private schools in the Chicago area with tuition as low as 9k/year, let alone have the average that low. That is hard to believe.

 

That said, some private schools have tuition discounts/wavers and scholarship programs for poor kids.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

The current evaluation system is over 40 years old. It includes, I believe, a form that the students fill out that rate the teachers. In 2007, 98% of the teachers rated out as distinguished or above average.

 

I guess they're not teaching the kids what "average" means.

[StrangeSox]

Yep, I am completely unfamiliar with teachers. I only spent 21 years of life in schools, spent over $250k on education. I have no experience to say, this teacher is competent and that teacher is not. Im sure that it would be impossible to find 3-5 ex-educators who have no relation to CTU/CPS who live in Chicago, who would be impartial.

 

Right from your proposal:

 

Mentor Teachers will be CPS employees.

 

Why do we need conflicts of interest? Why cant we just get impartial people? You act like Im suggesting to hire a random person off the street. I just want people who are not connected to CPS or CTU.

 

You were referring to "average people" and "taxpayers." How was I supposed to assume that you meant ex-educators or people who are familiar with teaching and evaluation?

 

I don't think you have the experience or knowledge to accurately assess a teacher. Having been a student throughout your life does not give you that ability. You would need to be knowledge of the actual field of education and have gone through similar education and training that teachers have to assess their performance.