CTU is Going on Strike

[Steve9347]

Maybe they shouldn't do that, because the idea that the average American teacher works 11 hours per work day is ridiculous.

 

Think of every lazy teacher who does the minimum or uses the same lesson plan year after year putting in like 6 hours a day of legit work. There's a teacher putting in 16 hours a day for every one of those? That's like 8am to 2am every day!

I must know at least 20 teachers. They don't work past 2:30-4 on any given day. And if they do, it's because they are teaching a sport or doing math club or some s*** where they get ADDITIONAL PAY BEYOND THEIR SALARIES.

 

And when they are grading papers at home, or planning, or whatever, they're watching American Idol and drinking.

 

Some even have the audacity to b**** about having to go to the Scantron machine and wait for it to churn out their work.

 

All of these arguments are just silly. Teachers, for the most part, have it made, and they all act like they are the most noble people doing God's work and raising everyone's children for little to know pay.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Steve9347

[Soxbadger]

Well, you can do what some states are doing -- require a master's degree. This rules out a lot of folks. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to you to decide. I'm studying to teach in college and I can say the 6 years post-grad helps to narrow the field significantly.

 

You may not be aware, but getting a masters degree screws you trying to get a CPS job. One of my good friends is very talented, she went to Smith for undergrad and got 2 masters at Depaul (education and history) before she even tried to get a teaching job. Her dream was to be a High School teacher. She student taught at CPS and the school loved her. But they couldnt hire her.

 

Why?

 

According to the contract they had to pay her X due to all of her degrees. She just wanted a job, she told them she would be willing to take the lowest starting salary. They said that it was not allowed because of the union. She is now teaching at a private school in the suburbs, making less money than a brand new CPS teacher with no extra degrees.

 

It makes no sense.

[StrangeSox]

It's buried in OECD data, trying to find

 

edit: here, I'm pretty sure

 

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/eag_hig...eType=text/html

 

here, specifically:

 

http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932310529

 

Tab "T_D4.1" shows that primary education averages 1913 hours, lower secondary averages 1977 and upper secondary averages 1998 per year.

[IlliniKrush]

I must know at least 20 teachers. They don't work past 2:30-4 on any given day. And if they do, it's because they are teaching a sport or doing math club or some s*** where they get ADDITIONAL PAY BEYOND THEIR SALARIES.

 

And when they are grading papers at home, or planning, or whatever, they're watching American Idol and drinking.

 

Some even have the audacity to b**** about having to go to the Scantron machine and wait for it to churn out their work.

 

All of these arguments are just silly. Teachers, for the most part, have it made, and they all act like they are the most noble people doing God's work and raising everyone's children for little to know pay.

This is correct. My sister's a teacher, b****es about after school stuff and the extra hours when it's extra pay. Doesn't make sense.

 

The bottom line like you said is entitlement since they feel that their job is so important (maybe most important). Well a lot of people's jobs are important, everyone is making the world turn. Anytime they find someone that makes more than them, they always go back to that argument, they are teaching kids, how is that not more important than X. As a result, they think they deserve more money than that profession.

Edited September 11, 2012 by IlliniKrush

[Y2HH]

This thread has helped me realize that I have the best job out there.

 

Thanks.

 

Yay me.

[Steve9347]

I'm going to not be a teacher and take my lunch, since apparently no teacher anywhere has ever had lunch.

[StrangeSox]

You may not be aware, but getting a masters degree screws you trying to get a CPS job. One of my good friends is very talented, she went to Smith for undergrad and got 2 masters at Depaul (education and history) before she even tried to get a teaching job. Her dream was to be a High School teacher. She student taught at CPS and the school loved her. But they couldnt hire her.

 

Why?

 

According to the contract they had to pay her X due to all of her degrees. She just wanted a job, she told them she would be willing to take the lowest starting salary. They said that it was not allowed because of the union. She is now teaching at a private school in the suburbs, making less money than a brand new CPS teacher with no extra degrees.

 

It makes no sense.

 

My wife specifically did not choose a master's program when she went back to get her teaching certificate.

 

Allowing people to accept lower pay undercuts the wages that unions have negotiated for. It's guild-like protectionism and hurts some while it helps others.

[Soxbadger]

here, specifically:

 

http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/888932310529

 

Tab "T_D4.1" shows that primary education averages 1913 hours, lower secondary averages 1977 and upper secondary averages 1998 per year.

 

Sorry for being unclear, I meant the stat about regular workers doing less than 2k hours. The stats I linked from the US govt showed every industry averaged over 40 hours per week.

 

This is what I was referring to,

 

According to data from the comparable year in a Labor Department survey, an average full-time employee works 1,932 hours a year spread out over 48 weeks (excluding two weeks vacation and federal holidays).

[StrangeSox]

Sorry for being unclear, I meant the stat about regular workers doing less than 2k hours. The stats I linked from the US govt showed every industry averaged over 40 hours per week.

 

This is what I was referring to,

 

According to data from the comparable year in a Labor Department survey, an average full-time employee works 1,932 hours a year spread out over 48 weeks (excluding two weeks vacation and federal holidays).

 

It really pisses me off when news articles don't include links to sources. So lazy. I'll go digging...

[iamshack]

You may not be aware, but getting a masters degree screws you trying to get a CPS job. One of my good friends is very talented, she went to Smith for undergrad and got 2 masters at Depaul (education and history) before she even tried to get a teaching job. Her dream was to be a High School teacher. She student taught at CPS and the school loved her. But they couldnt hire her.

 

Why?

 

According to the contract they had to pay her X due to all of her degrees. She just wanted a job, she told them she would be willing to take the lowest starting salary. They said that it was not allowed because of the union. She is now teaching at a private school in the suburbs, making less money than a brand new CPS teacher with no extra degrees.

 

It makes no sense.

Again, welcome to life on earth.

 

You know how many jobs I applied for in 2007-08 and was told I was overqualified because I held a law degree?

 

THIS IS THE REAL WORLD, NOT JUST THE TEACHING PROFESSION.

[NorthSideSox72]

Man, there is a lot of uninformed B.S. in here, and out there on social media. Regardless of where you stand on this, let's clarify some things people keep missing...

 

1. I keep seeing people mention the fact that the teachers want a 16% raise, while private industry founders, and how that is just whining and being spoiled, etc. This is so thick with falsehood it is hard to know where to start. First, a lot of people seem to forget that the extended school day means teachers are working 20%+ more hours - so a 16% raise is still an actual step DOWN in pay per hour. And oh by the way, the extended school day that will cost more money (salaries and other effects) was NOT the union's idea, it was the city's. Second, it completely ignores that both the CTU and the City officials are BOTH saying, salary isn't even the key issue here. But the money numbers are easy to throw around in some shallow attempt at discourse, so, lazy wins the day. Then there's the fact that private industry by nature is going to have lows AND highs economically, with huge opportunity for both. So where are the teacher bonuses when things go well? I mean, if they should suffer when others do, why aren't they also getting some of the success when things are going well? Can't have it both ways.

 

2. The fact that people here don't see the falsehood in the articles comparing MEDIAN and AVERAGE statistics against each other makes me wonder how many people ever took, or passed, basic statistics.

 

3. The idea that teachers can never be fired is false - let's focus on reality: teachers who reach certain levels of TENURE get big job protections. So don't go blaming every teacher, or thinking that as soon as you are hired you have a permanent job. I actually agree with those who dislike tenure job protections - I think they should be gone entirely. But that is what they are TENURE rules, not rules protecting all teachers. They in fact work AGAINST younger, less experienced teachers.

 

4. On the other side of the argument, I see people who support the teachers' side stating that the union is right to try to stop merit evaluation based on test scores... but then they are also fighting the ability of principals and administrators to fire teachers who underperform. WTF? Which is it? Do you want your performance based on test scores, grades, or subjective review of performance? Because this argument you are making has it sound like you want NONE, and that is a giant pile of B.S. You are working with public dollars, and people deserve to know that teachers are being evaluated somehow, some way, so that the lousy ones can be shown the door. So pick your poison.

 

5. I am also seeing BOTH sides get into this thing where they are accusing the other of not caring about the children involved. Bulls***. You really think that most teachers AND administrators (who usually were teachers previously) don't care about this? Come on now, let's put that stuff aside. They both care, obviously, but also NEITHER cared enough to find a way to get a good contract done. It isn't one side or the other veing somehow evil here, or wanting to hurt their students. This is the same empty garbage we hear from people saying Obama wants to destroy the country, or Bush wanted to take over the Middle East. Give it a rest.

 

[Soxbadger]

My wife specifically did not choose a master's program when she went back to get her teaching certificate.

 

Allowing people to accept lower pay undercuts the wages that unions have negotiated for. It's guild-like protectionism and hurts some while it helps others.

 

No it hurts everyone, because unlike a private sector job, schools are for the benefit of society. So when you have highly educated teachers who want the same job for less money, society is hurt when the union says no. Society is hurt when the school district is bankrupt and the union wont let it hire cheaper replacements.

 

Once again, everyone wants a teacher job. But the union creates a system where only the select few ever get it and then creates rules to ensure that those select few never lose it.

 

And maybe Id be a little more convinced in the system if we were going gangbusters and dominating in education. But we arent, so outside of teachers bank accounts, who is winning?

 

Because this is who is not: children, tax payers, society.

 

[StrangeSox]

^^a good post

 

edit: damn you soxbadger, that was meant for NSS's post.

Edited September 11, 2012 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

Man, there is a lot of uninformed B.S. in here, and out there on social media. Regardless of where you stand on this, let's clarify some things people keep missing...

 

1. I keep seeing people mention the fact that the teachers want a 16% raise, while private industry founders, and how that is just whining and being spoiled, etc. This is so thick with falsehood it is hard to know where to start. First, a lot of people seem to forget that the extended school day means teachers are working 20%+ more hours - so a 16% raise is still an actual step DOWN in pay per hour. And oh by the way, the extended school day that will cost more money (salaries and other effects) was NOT the union's idea, it was the city's. Second, it completely ignores that both the CTU and the City officials are BOTH saying, salary isn't even the key issue here. But the money numbers are easy to throw around in some shallow attempt at discourse, so, lazy wins the day. Then there's the fact that private industry by nature is going to have lows AND highs economically, with huge opportunity for both. So where are the teacher bonuses when things go well? I mean, if they should suffer when others do, why aren't they also getting some of the success when things are going well? Can't have it both ways.

 

2. The fact that people here don't see the falsehood in the articles comparing MEDIAN and AVERAGE statistics against each other makes me wonder how many people ever took, or passed, basic statistics.

 

3. The idea that teachers can never be fired is false - let's focus on reality: teachers who reach certain levels of TENURE get big job protections. So don't go blaming every teacher, or thinking that as soon as you are hired you have a permanent job. I actually agree with those who dislike tenure job protections - I think they should be gone entirely. But that is what they are TENURE rules, not rules protecting all teachers. They in fact work AGAINST younger, less experienced teachers.

 

4. On the other side of the argument, I see people who support the teachers' side stating that the union is right to try to stop merit evaluation based on test scores... but then they are also fighting the ability of principals and administrators to fire teachers who underperform. WTF? Which is it? Do you want your performance based on test scores, grades, or subjective review of performance? Because this argument you are making has it sound like you want NONE, and that is a giant pile of B.S. You are working with public dollars, and people deserve to know that teachers are being evaluated somehow, some way, so that the lousy ones can be shown the door. So pick your poison.

 

5. I am also seeing BOTH sides get into this thing where they are accusing the other of not caring about the children involved. Bulls***. You really think that most teachers AND administrators (who usually were teachers previously) don't care about this? Come on now, let's put that stuff aside. They both care, obviously, but also NEITHER cared enough to find a way to get a good contract done. It isn't one side or the other veing somehow evil here, or wanting to hurt their students. This is the same empty garbage we hear from people saying Obama wants to destroy the country, or Bush wanted to take over the Middle East. Give it a rest.

Forgot one more key one...

 

6. Teachers work a lot of hours outside of work, more so than most any profession. The idea that it is a job with some huge amount of time off compared to others is completely false. When you add in all the extra, unpaid overtime they have to put in, they are probably getting a similar amount to everyone else in professional jobs. And they don't get to choose when to take it like others do.

 

[Y2HH]

Do you want to make more money?! Sure! We all do. In this age of infomations and interwebs and wireless communications...go into IT...more jobs available than people to fill them...higher salaries than most industries...with excellent benefits and vacation packages!

 

The catch? I know you think I'm going to say there is none...but there is! In IT, unlike in any other industry, every job you apply for, including entry level jobs requires at LEAST 5 years of experience! How does that work? I have no idea! Maybe if you were born in the 70's/early 80's, and entered the Internet Age before anyone knew what the Internet was, you wouldn't have needed that experience...but you do now, suckers!

 

This public service announcement has been brought to you by Y2HH.

[Y2HH]

Forgot one more key one...

 

6. Teachers work a lot of hours outside of work, more so than most any profession. The idea that it is a job with some huge amount of time off compared to others is completely false. When you add in all the extra, unpaid overtime they have to put in, they are probably getting a similar amount to everyone else in professional jobs. And they don't get to choose when to take it like others do.

 

This is entirely false.

[Soxbadger]

Again, welcome to life on earth.

 

You know how many jobs I applied for in 2007-08 and was told I was overqualified because I held a law degree?

 

THIS IS THE REAL WORLD, NOT JUST THE TEACHING PROFESSION.

 

They wouldnt hire you, even if youd take minimum wage?

 

I cant imagine that.

[iamshack]

Thanks.

 

Now that we have been enlightened, we can continue on with our ill-informed debate.

[Steve9347]

Man, there is a lot of uninformed B.S. in here, and out there on social media. Regardless of where you stand on this, let's clarify some things people keep missing...

 

1. I keep seeing people mention the fact that the teachers want a 16% raise, while private industry founders, and how that is just whining and being spoiled, etc. This is so thick with falsehood it is hard to know where to start. First, a lot of people seem to forget that the extended school day means teachers are working 20%+ more hours - so a 16% raise is still an actual step DOWN in pay per hour. And oh by the way, the extended school day that will cost more money (salaries and other effects) was NOT the union's idea, it was the city's. Second, it completely ignores that both the CTU and the City officials are BOTH saying, salary isn't even the key issue here. But the money numbers are easy to throw around in some shallow attempt at discourse, so, lazy wins the day. Then there's the fact that private industry by nature is going to have lows AND highs economically, with huge opportunity for both. So where are the teacher bonuses when things go well? I mean, if they should suffer when others do, why aren't they also getting some of the success when things are going well? Can't have it both ways.

 

2. The fact that people here don't see the falsehood in the articles comparing MEDIAN and AVERAGE statistics against each other makes me wonder how many people ever took, or passed, basic statistics.

 

3. The idea that teachers can never be fired is false - let's focus on reality: teachers who reach certain levels of TENURE get big job protections. So don't go blaming every teacher, or thinking that as soon as you are hired you have a permanent job. I actually agree with those who dislike tenure job protections - I think they should be gone entirely. But that is what they are TENURE rules, not rules protecting all teachers. They in fact work AGAINST younger, less experienced teachers.

 

4. On the other side of the argument, I see people who support the teachers' side stating that the union is right to try to stop merit evaluation based on test scores... but then they are also fighting the ability of principals and administrators to fire teachers who underperform. WTF? Which is it? Do you want your performance based on test scores, grades, or subjective review of performance? Because this argument you are making has it sound like you want NONE, and that is a giant pile of B.S. You are working with public dollars, and people deserve to know that teachers are being evaluated somehow, some way, so that the lousy ones can be shown the door. So pick your poison.

 

5. I am also seeing BOTH sides get into this thing where they are accusing the other of not caring about the children involved. Bulls***. You really think that most teachers AND administrators (who usually were teachers previously) don't care about this? Come on now, let's put that stuff aside. They both care, obviously, but also NEITHER cared enough to find a way to get a good contract done. It isn't one side or the other veing somehow evil here, or wanting to hurt their students. This is the same empty garbage we hear from people saying Obama wants to destroy the country, or Bush wanted to take over the Middle East. Give it a rest.

 

 

No it hurts everyone, because unlike a private sector job, schools are for the benefit of society. So when you have highly educated teachers who want the same job for less money, society is hurt when the union says no. Society is hurt when the school district is bankrupt and the union wont let it hire cheaper replacements.

 

Once again, everyone wants a teacher job. But the union creates a system where only the select few ever get it and then creates rules to ensure that those select few never lose it.

 

And maybe Id be a little more convinced in the system if we were going gangbusters and dominating in education. But we arent, so outside of teachers bank accounts, who is winning?

 

Because this is who is not: children, tax payers, society.

Both of these are solid posts, but they lack the passion of a Steve post.

[StrangeSox]

No it hurts everyone, because unlike a private sector job, schools are for the benefit of society. So when you have highly educated teachers who want the same job for less money, society is hurt when the union says no. Society is hurt when the school district is bankrupt and the union wont let it hire cheaper replacements.

 

Once again, everyone wants a teacher job. But the union creates a system where only the select few ever get it and then creates rules to ensure that those select few never lose it.

 

And maybe Id be a little more convinced in the system if we were going gangbusters and dominating in education. But we arent, so outside of teachers bank accounts, who is winning?

 

Because this is who is not: children, tax payers, society.

 

It doesn't hurt people already inside the guild. This isn't much different than ABA or AMA controlling bar and licensing rates to protect those who are already in. I'm trying to make as neutral a statement as possible here, not saying it's the right policy.

[iamshack]

They wouldnt hire you, even if youd take minimum wage?

 

I cant imagine that.

I didn't say I would take minimum wage.

 

I said I applied for a lot of jobs and was told I was overqualified.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Do you want to make more money?! Sure! We all do. In this age of infomations and interwebs and wireless communications...go into IT...more jobs available than people to fill them...higher salaries than most industries...with excellent benefits and vacation packages!

 

The catch? I know you think I'm going to say there is none...but there is! In IT, unlike in any other industry, every job you apply for, including entry level jobs requires at LEAST 5 years of experience! How does that work? I have no idea! Maybe if you were born in the 70's/early 80's, and entered the Internet Age before anyone knew what the Internet was, you wouldn't have needed that experience...but you do now, suckers!

 

This public service announcement has been brought to you by Y2HH.

That's a conundrum in IT, has been for a while, but there are a couple ways to get into that door. One is, when companies are growing quickly, they will often hire recent college grads (or others with relatively little experience) and train them. That happens more when the economy is growing, of course, than it does now. The other way is to start for some really small outfit, doing the job out of multi-tasking necessity, and transition in.

 

Anyway, its not a great comparison with teaching. Teaching is more akin to pure Engineering, or architecture, where your degree is itself a professional ticket of sorts.

 

[Steve9347]

Forgot one more key one...

 

6. Teachers work a lot of hours outside of work, more so than most any profession. The idea that it is a job with some huge amount of time off compared to others is completely false. When you add in all the extra, unpaid overtime they have to put in, they are probably getting a similar amount to everyone else in professional jobs. And they don't get to choose when to take it like others do.

Well, let's be real, that "overtime" gets teachers to a normal level of working - those who actually do it. You cannot say with any breath of seriousness that 3 straight months off, plus 2-4 weeks in December, plus Spring Break while also getting weekends off during the school year is not having more time off compared to other professions. It's just blatantly inaccurate.

[NorthSideSox72]

Both of these are solid posts, but they lack the passion of a Steve post.

I don't do passion real well. I do words. Lots and lots of words. Probably should have been a lawyer.

 

[Y2HH]

Well, let's be real, that "overtime" gets teachers to a normal level of working - those who actually do it. You cannot say with any breath of seriousness that 3 straight months off, plus 2-4 weeks in December, plus Spring Break while also getting weekends off during the school year is not having more time off compared to other professions. It's just blatantly inaccurate.

 

I don't think teachers work any extra hours than most any other professional profession. What I mean by professional is white collar. Lawyers work just as much. Nurses, just as much. IT people often work even more (I'm an exception to this rule because I'm awesome and do network security which almost nobody does)...point being, there are a LOT of professions that work long hours/after hours with no additional benefits of doing so...oh...and most don't have pensions and health/dental for life, either.