CTU is Going on Strike

[NorthSideSox72]

Well, let's be real, that "overtime" gets teachers to a normal level of working - those who actually do it. You cannot say with any breath of seriousness that 3 straight months off, plus 2-4 weeks in December, plus Spring Break while also getting weekends off during the school year is not having more time off compared to other professions. It's just blatantly inaccurate.

That was kind of my point - the bolded. They don't get less time off than most people, but they also don't get tons more (effectively) than others, which is the line of reasoning I was countering.

 

Looking at other publically-funded professionals, like say Cops and Firefighters, they do little work outside hours, they work fewer hours, and they get paid OT for when they go over. As they should, IMO, because of the conditions of their jobs. And this is coming from someone who used to work in law enforcement.

 

[StrangeSox]

Sorry for being unclear, I meant the stat about regular workers doing less than 2k hours. The stats I linked from the US govt showed every industry averaged over 40 hours per week.

 

This is what I was referring to,

 

According to data from the comparable year in a Labor Department survey, an average full-time employee works 1,932 hours a year spread out over 48 weeks (excluding two weeks vacation and federal holidays).

 

 

I can only find that same 2011 data set, not the 2008 set (that's the OECD data year). I think average hours are still up since the recession, though.

[StrangeSox]

Well, let's be real, that "overtime" gets teachers to a normal level of working - those who actually do it. You cannot say with any breath of seriousness that 3 straight months off, plus 2-4 weeks in December, plus Spring Break while also getting weekends off during the school year is not having more time off compared to other professions. It's just blatantly inaccurate.

 

Teachers do not get "three straight months," or twelve weeks, off in the summer. What school district that isn't on some modified year-round schedule gets more than 2 weeks in December?

[Steve9347]

Looking at other publically-funded professionals, like say Cops and Firefighters, they do little work outside hours, they work fewer hours, and they get paid OT for when they go over. As they should, IMO, because of the conditions of their jobs. And this is coming from someone who used to work in law enforcement.

Yeah, but even with that overtime, they get paid, on average 30k less in Chicago than CPS teachers.

[StrangeSox]

I don't think teachers work any extra hours than most any other professional profession. What I mean by professional is white collar. Lawyers work just as much. Nurses, just as much. IT people often work even more (I'm an exception to this rule because I'm awesome and do network security which almost nobody does)...point being, there are a LOT of professions that work long hours/after hours with no additional benefits of doing so...oh...and most don't have pensions and health/dental for life, either.

 

Lawyers generally have the additional benefit of making $$$

[Steve9347]

Teachers do not get "three straight months," or twelve weeks, off in the summer. What school district that isn't on some modified year-round schedule gets more than 2 weeks in December?

Well, college teachers get close to a month off...

[StrangeSox]

Well, college teachers get close to a month off...

 

CPS isn't college and professors are often researchers first, teachers second. It's not really the same thing.

[Steve9347]

Lawyers generally have the additional benefit of making $$$

You know there are lawyers out there who simply get a salary, right? Not every lawyer in the world is being privately paid.

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah, but even with that overtime, they get paid, on average 30k less in Chicago than CPS teachers.

I'm not sure that's true. CPD officers start in the low 40's for a base, they all get varying amounts of OT, so they are probably making 45k first year in. Then there are stripes, specialist roles, command roles, and just plain seniority, and there are guys pulling in 6 figures or close to it. I'd be the average is pretty similar.

 

It is a good topic for debate, though - if you look at the average teacher versus the average firefighter, at say 10 years in, should they make similar money? One more than the other? I'd guess they are pretty similar as it stands now.

 

[iamshack]

Lawyers generally have the additional benefit of making $$$

Yeah, my degree also took me 3 extra years and cost $100 grand.

[CrimsonWeltall]

First, a lot of people seem to forget that the extended school day means teachers are working 20%+ more hours - so a 16% raise is still an actual step DOWN in pay per hour.

 

They're not working 20%+ more hours because the plan involves hiring 477 extra teachers to work those added hours.

 

High school teachers are going to be working an extra 14 minutes. Elementary and middle school teachers will be working the same hours as before. So it's a 16% raise for working basically the same schedule.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07...-teachers-union

[Steve9347]

They're not working 20%+ more hours because the plan involves hiring 477 extra teachers to work those added hours.

 

High school teachers are going to be working an extra 14 minutes. Elementary and middle school teachers will be working the same hours as before. So it's a 16% raise for working basically the same schedule.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07...-teachers-union

When everywhere else, in reality, raises aren't being tossed around for s***s and giggles.

[NorthSideSox72]

They're not working 20%+ more hours because the plan involves hiring 477 extra teachers to work those added hours.

 

High school teachers are going to be working an extra 14 minutes. Elementary and middle school teachers will be working the same hours as before. So it's a 16% raise for working basically the same schedule.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07...-teachers-union

And then they didn't hire them, and are now saying they can't. Back in July, that was the plan.

 

Now, if they actually do plan to create a situation where they teachers are working the same hours (or close to it anyway), then I would heartily agree the demands for a 16% raise (even if over a few years) seem way out of bounds and not realistic.

 

[ptatc]

Aside from a publicly funded pension + lifetime health/dental benefits, you mean.

The pension is a point of contention. It should be publicly funded as our entire job is to benefit the public. Our job isn't to make money or profit as it is for most people. With your pension you have options as well as social security. Teachers do not get the social security. We do not get lifetime health and dental benefits. We currently get it to 65 and go to medicare like many other retirees. The benfits are self insured meaning we pay a large portion of all of our medical and dental benfits as the state contrbution has decreased to almost nothing. Also there is a member of the administration who decides on what our medical and dental contrbution is without input from any other sources. The teachers benefits including retirement currently ranks in the bottom 1/4 of states in the US.

 

Currently our retirement doesn't include a death benefit for spouses. If you die does your spouse get anything from your retirement plan?

[StrangeSox]

They're not working 20%+ more hours because the plan involves hiring 477 extra teachers to work those added hours.

 

High school teachers are going to be working an extra 14 minutes. Elementary and middle school teachers will be working the same hours as before. So it's a 16% raise for working basically the same schedule.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07...-teachers-union

A 16% raise over four years if you can figure out where the CPS is getting that number. So about 3.5% per year and not getting their cancelled 4% COL.

[ptatc]

CPS isn't college and professors are often researchers first, teachers second. It's not really the same thing.

This is only true in Carnegie Level 1 universities which most schools are not.

[ptatc]

Yeah, my degree also took me 3 extra years and cost $100 grand.

Most teachers to even make a little more money need to go get a Master's degree as well.

[NorthSideSox72]

They're not working 20%+ more hours because the plan involves hiring 477 extra teachers to work those added hours.

 

High school teachers are going to be working an extra 14 minutes. Elementary and middle school teachers will be working the same hours as before. So it's a 16% raise for working basically the same schedule.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-07...-teachers-union

 

 

And then they didn't hire them, and are now saying they can't. Back in July, that was the plan.

 

Now, if they actually do plan to create a situation where they teachers are working the same hours (or close to it anyway), then I would heartily agree the demands for a 16% raise (even if over a few years) seem way out of bounds and not realistic.

 

Also, I haven't seen this yet... is the new teacher hiring being discussed in these negotations? I have only seen mention of the CTU's disagreement with the idea that the new teacher hires would not be people previously laid off. Which means they haven't actually hired any yet. And CPS was saying a while back they may not be able to hire them at all.

 

That should probably be part of the discussions, I would think. If the CTU is demanding more money because of added hours, then CPS should be able to counter with hiring teachers to make up the difference. The other way around works too.

 

[StrangeSox]

This is only true in Carnegie Level 1 universities which most schools are not.

 

This is a good point that I thought of about 10 seconds after posting. Some schools pride themselves on being teaching universities and not research-oriented.

[EvilMonkey]

The pension is a point of contention. It should be publicly funded as our entire job is to benefit the public. Our job isn't to make money or profit as it is for most people. With your pension you have options as well as social security. Teachers do not get the social security. We do not get lifetime health and dental benefits. We currently get it to 65 and go to medicare like many other retirees. The benfits are self insured meaning we pay a large portion of all of our medical and dental benfits as the state contrbution has decreased to almost nothing. Also there is a member of the administration who decides on what our medical and dental contrbution is without input from any other sources. The teachers benefits including retirement currently ranks in the bottom 1/4 of states in the US.

 

Currently our retirement doesn't include a death benefit for spouses. If you die does your spouse get anything from your retirement plan?

You should get SS like everyone else. The pension thing was originally because you were paid less. Since that isn't the case, if it is good enough for the general population, it is good enough for teachers as well.

[EvilMonkey]

Most teachers to even make a little more money need to go get a Master's degree as well.

Or get another year experience for that automatic increase.

[CrimsonWeltall]

And then they didn't hire them, and are now saying they can't. Back in July, that was the plan.

 

NSS, do you have any news link about this? I can't find anything

[NorthSideSox72]

A 16% raise over four years if you can figure out where the CPS is getting that number. So about 3.5% per year and not getting their cancelled 4% COL.

The numbers I've seen along the way, were that they wanted 19% originally, and came down to 16%. Now I am seeing those much lower numbers bandied about.

 

Asking for a simple COLA seems pretty reasonable to me (leaving aside the extra hours for the moment). And if they didn't get COLA's before, then catch-up is also worth discussing. Where it gets sticky is raises over COLA numbers, and whether or not they are associated with more hours.

 

[StrangeSox]

Negotiators are well-aware of the pension when they're hammering out wages and other benefits.

[Y2HH]

You should get SS like everyone else. The pension thing was originally because you were paid less. Since that isn't the case, if it is good enough for the general population, it is good enough for teachers as well.

 

They also don't pay into the SS fund, so it's not like they lost the money.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Y2HH