southsider2k5 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:58 PM) The entire thing boils down to the economic conditions. The raises cost money. Smaller classes mean more teachers, which costs money. More resources obviously cost more money. Which of these issues are not directly relevant to the economy? And if they really want more resources in the classroom that badly, do they not have an accounting teacher in the school system who can tell them that this is a zero sum game? A dollar that goes for a raise, is a dollar less than can go for something like classroom aids or materials. The school systems funding is fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:59 PM) Why dont you tell me what this strike is about because I have it so wrong. I've posted several summaries in this thread. The ones who didnt show up clearly dont take it seriously. Some of these kids are going to be adversely impacted, its just not fair to them. And as a person, I put the needs of innocent children over the needs of adults who are getting paid considerable money to show up and help these kids. Striking workers don't take their jobs seriously? That's in interesting perspective. Many of the issues they're striking over directly benefit the innocent children. If being a teacher in CPS is so bad, why dont they go to another school district? Maybe they're not a bunch of heartless bastards after all? Maybe they do care about the children and are fighting for better working conditions. Framing either side as "not caring about the children" is just lazy rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:01 PM) And if they really want more resources in the classroom that badly, do they not have an accounting teacher in the school system who can tell them that this is a zero sum game? A dollar that goes for a raise, is a dollar less than can go for something like classroom aids or materials. The school systems funding is fixed. No they just want more. More money, more teachers, more resources. Im pretty sure that every person in Chicago wants there to be more teachers and more resources. The problem is the best way to achieve that is to get rid of teachers who are making 3x more than what brand new teacher would make. Since the union wont allow CPS to hire brand new teachers at ridiculously low rates, you cant get more teachers. So thus the teachers who want their larger paychecks, need to do more work. Its as if these teachers have never seen a budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:00 PM) Where did I say it wasn't relevant to the economy (funding)? You are criticizing people for bringing up the economy as it relates to the timing of the union's demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 03:59 PM) Sure they are, but it's more difficult to frame it as greedy asshole teachers saying to hell with the kids if they're fighting over classroom resources and to keep class size down. THE MONEY DOES NOT EXIST. What would you have the City do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:02 PM) I've posted several summaries in this thread. Striking workers don't take their jobs seriously? That's in interesting perspective. Many of the issues they're striking over directly benefit the innocent children. Maybe they're not a bunch of heartless bastards after all? Maybe they do care about the children and are fighting for better working conditions. Framing either side as "not caring about the children" is just lazy rhetoric. No you really havent. Everything has been about money. Their issues dont benefit children. What would benefit children is the union allowing CPS to hire teachers at a fraction of the cost so that kids could be in classrooms of 10 or less. As for why they wont leave CPS, I thought you knew. They get paid better than most teachers anywhere else in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:03 PM) No they just want more. More money, more teachers, more resources. Im pretty sure that every person in Chicago wants there to be more teachers and more resources. The problem is the best way to achieve that is to get rid of teachers who are making 3x more than what brand new teacher would make. Since the union wont allow CPS to hire brand new teachers at ridiculously low rates, you cant get more teachers. So thus the teachers who want their larger paychecks, need to do more work. Its as if these teachers have never seen a budget. There is no "more". The school system is fixed to a certain percentage of property taxes collected, by law. Its not like a corporation where they can raise or lower prices, or decide to spend more of their profits on wages etc. Their school system is already in a ridiculous amount of debt and deficit because everyone ignores this. In this situation, more raises literally means less classroom resources. It is a zero sum game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:17 PM) There is no "more". The school system is fixed to a certain percentage of property taxes collected, by law. Its not like a corporation where they can raise or lower prices, or decide to spend more of their profits on wages etc. Their school system is already in a ridiculous amount of debt and deficit because everyone ignores this. In this situation, more raises literally means less classroom resources. It is a zero sum game. I understand that, it seems the union doesnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:22 PM) I understand that, it seems the union doesnt. More like doesn't want to admit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:24 PM) More like doesn't want to admit... Or doesn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 09:50 AM) So I'm right. Thanks. The fact that they're walking out is such a red herring. Are conservatives here enraged because 1) they're walking out on students or 2) people are using their rights to unionize, collectively bargain and strike? If you say number one, you're full of s***. Full stop. I don't know who you think I am, or what you think I am, but I don't give a flying f*** about conservatives, liberals, or politics in general. I don't vote. I'm not going to vote. So don't pin me into one group or another. I think for my damn self. I don't have political alignments. And if I had students in the CPS system, and their teachers walked out, I'd be f***ing pissed. Period. Get the f*** out of here with that conservative bs because I don't give a s***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Im watching you Wasowski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_genius Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Can we just fire them and get this over with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:35 PM) /thread That sign should be considered a war crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippedoutpunk Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 QUOTE (mr_genius @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 05:46 PM) Can we just fire them and get this over with? ill step in and work if they dont want to. i could live with 40k and the summer off, i dont need a contract either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 QUOTE (flippedoutpunk @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 06:55 PM) ill step in and work if they dont want to. i could live with 40k and the summer off, i dont need a contract either. Do you have the requisite skills, a masters degree and a teaching certificate? Could you also live near your actual place of work on that salary? (quick cost of living calculation says that $40k in Chicago buys what $31k buys here using CNN money's calculator) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 More great discussion on Chicago Tonight. They are focusing on the main issues of contention, evaluations and hiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippedoutpunk Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 07:06 PM) Do you have the requisite skills, a masters degree and a teaching certificate? Could you also live near your actual place of work on that salary? (quick cost of living calculation says that $40k in Chicago buys what $31k buys here using CNN money's calculator) Ask me that again in about year and ill be able to say yes sans the masters degree. My CPS friends that only have Bachelors degrees and are teaching 1st-3rd grade live very comfortably and often brag about purchasing an absurd amount of material things on the weekends at the mall, they also have swanky apartments in lincoln park. Ive had to help them grade papers when i did student observation hours with them and the entire process took about 20 minutes (for 1st-3rd grade work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Your friends sound like they are living far beyond their means. $74k a year for teachers with over a decade of experience is a decent living, but not a luxurious one. If they don't have that experience, they are likely making considerably less than $74k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Really, if people are interested in what the concerns of both sides are,i can't recommend last nights and tonights Chicago Tonight enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 07:06 PM) Do you have the requisite skills, a masters degree and a teaching certificate? Could you also live near your actual place of work on that salary? (quick cost of living calculation says that $40k in Chicago buys what $31k buys here using CNN money's calculator) Weren't you the one just saying that they won't hire people with Masters Degrees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 07:19 PM) Your friends sound like they are living far beyond their means. $74k a year for teachers with over a decade of experience is a decent living, but not a luxurious one. If they don't have that experience, they are likely making considerably less than $74k. The starting salary for a teacher in Chicago is the median salary for a household in the United States. Right out of college, that is pretty good money. $74k a year is about the 80th percentile of income for a household in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 07:23 PM) The starting salary for a teacher in Chicago is the median salary for a household in the United States. Right out of college, that is pretty good money. $74k a year is about the 80th percentile of income for a household in the US. It's pretty good money but it's not really that much. If they're really living in nice lp apartments and buying s bunch of crap at the mall all the time, they're living paycheck to paycheck. Let's not pretend that $45k-$50k or what ever the exact amount is is some high livin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Sep 11, 2012 -> 04:59 PM) Why dont you tell me what this strike is about because I have it so wrong. The ones who didnt show up clearly dont take it seriously. Some of these kids are going to be adversely impacted, its just not fair to them. And as a person, I put the needs of innocent children over the needs of adults who are getting paid considerable money to show up and help these kids. If being a teacher in CPS is so bad, why dont they go to another school district? The strike is really about who gets to evaluate a teachers effectiveness in the classroom. Administration, peers or both. The administration wants it to be the principal only so they can hire and fire who they want. The teachers want a checks and balance system with a team to evaluate. The real problem is the only way to legally strike is over economic issues so the teachers cannot use only this issue. They must continually bring up the salary or benefit issue or their strike could be declared illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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