CTU is Going on Strike

[StrangeSox]

I get to sit at my desk and play on Soxtalk because I a can multitask and take care of 1) a client on the phone, 2) writing nonsense and 3) posting on Soxtalk.

 

If you're posting on SoxTalk, you're not working. Teachers generally don't get the luxury of taking those sorts of mental breaks throughout the day.

 

[flippedoutpunk]

It's unfortunate that all labor isn't represented so that they can't be trampled by management without a say.

 

Then we can borrow from China to pay every worker in the U.S.'s crazy pension and benefit plans.

[StrangeSox]

Then we can borrow from China to pay every worker in the U.S.'s crazy pension and benefit plans.

 

Alternatively, we can close the ever-widening wealth and income gaps instead of racing to the bottom.

[Balta1701]

I've only done a bit of reading on the matter, but I went after the math part. As far as I can tell, the city hasn't revealed how exactly it came up with the 16% number that its saying it has offered in terms of a 4 year salary increase. Rather, here's what ABC has reported is included in their offer:

He said the deal comes with a 3-percent raise the first year, and 2 percent the second, third and fourth years of the deal.

That takes you up to just over a 9% increase over 4 years, not 16%. The guess seems to be that there's some seniority changes somewhere that the city is counting towards that 16% number but I can't find it discussed openly. Either that, or the city thinks no one will do the math.

[Soxbadger]

Thanks to union organization. It's unfortunate that all labor isn't represented so that they can't be trampled by management without a say.

 

Its not unfortunate. Unions used to make sense, now they fight for more rights then regular humans get. Unions werent created so that workers could get better perks than everyone, they were created so they could get equal treatment.

 

 

If you're posting on SoxTalk, you're not working. Teachers generally don't get the luxury of taking those sorts of mental breaks throughout the day.

 

Are you the working police? How do you determine whether I am working or not?

 

 

[Soxbadger]

Alternatively, we can close the ever-widening wealth and income gaps instead of racing to the bottom.

 

But this isnt about that. This is about a select group getting better benefits than the whole.

 

Teachers are complaining about raises, in an economy when many people are being forced to take paycuts. And it is those very same people who have to then pay for teachers to get raises. Most people would just like the job security a teacher has, let alone the raises.

[southsider2k5]

Alternatively, we can close the ever-widening wealth and income gaps instead of racing to the bottom.

 

So where is the cut off between "racing to the bottom" and fighting for more?

[LittleHurt05]

Thanks to union organization. It's unfortunate that all labor isn't represented so that they can't be trampled by management without a say.

 

And all the s***ty, lazy workers can be forever protected from termination.

[southsider2k5]

But this isnt about that. This is about a select group getting better benefits than the whole.

 

Teachers are complaining about raises, in an economy when many people are being forced to take paycuts. And it is those very same people who have to then pay for teachers to get raises. Most people would just like the job security a teacher has, let alone the raises.

 

Any idea what the average compensation package for a teacher is worth? I know what the beginning and average salaries are, but I would be curious what the average teacher cost is in Chicago when benefits are added in.

[StrangeSox]

Its not unfortunate. Unions used to make sense, now they fight for more rights then regular humans get. Unions werent created so that workers could get better perks than everyone, they were created so they could get equal treatment.

 

Union members are "regular humans." But unions were the ones to first fight, often literally, for the workers' rights we all enjoy. Unions still make sense since management still has immensely more bargaining power than labor. Labor struggle isn't about equal treatment (it's not a discrimination/civil rights movement) but bargaining power for labor, and most workers, especially with the decline of unions, do not have that. The first unionized shops that were able to stand against violent crackdowns had better perks than everyone else, but their power and their influence grew to the point that 5-day, 40-hour weeks are the norm along with a host of other accomplishments.

 

I find it disheartening that the typical response to one group of workers having comparatively better wages, benefits, employment protections and bargaining power is for other groups of workers to tear them down, to decry them for not suffering like the rest of us.

[StrangeSox]

So where is the cut off between "racing to the bottom" and fighting for more?

 

Somewhere between believing that workers should accept whatever s*** deal management hands them and stopping the continual decline of the middle class and impoverishment of the working and non-working poor.

[StrangeSox]

And all the s***ty, lazy workers can be forever protected from termination.

 

No they can't; it may be difficult to remove a bad teacher for good reasons, but that's so it's difficult to remove a good teacher for bad reasons. But that's a specific argument against specific tenure rules in teachers' unions, not against unionization in general.

[StrangeSox]

I'd like to point out again that one of the things they're striking over is classroom size and keeping it down. That's directly beneficial to the students.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I find it disheartening that the typical response to one group of workers having comparatively better wages, benefits, employment protections and bargaining power is for other groups of workers to tear them down, to decry them for not suffering like the rest of us.

 

I think complaint isn't that they have BETTER wages/benefits/protections, but that they have UNREASONABLE wages/benefits/protections and the rest of us have to pay for them.

[bmags]

I find it disheartening that the typical response to one group of workers having comparatively better wages, benefits, employment protections and bargaining power is for other groups of workers to tear them down, to decry them for not suffering like the rest of us.

 

Well, they can largely look inward for why that happened.

[DukeNukeEm]

I'd like to point out again that one of the things they're striking over is classroom size and keeping it down. That's directly beneficial to the students.

Maybe if we didn't have to pay them so much we could afford more teachers, thus lowering classroom size. But I get the feeling that the concept of anything having to run a budget is incomprehensible to the demands of the CTU.

[MurcieOne]

I find it disheartening that the typical response to one group of workers having comparatively better wages, benefits, employment protections and bargaining power is for other groups of workers to tear them down, to decry them for not suffering like the rest of us.

 

 

I agree, but these workers aren't the typical worker. These employees, essentially, work for us. We pay for them, and they haven't been producing results that anyone can say justifies a pay raise. Also, nobody is asking them to take a pay cut. These employees are just being asked to work as much (less even) than their counterparts nationwide. They're essentially being asked to take LESS of a raise. When the calculus on these issues is added up, it's just very hard to justify their positions, at least in my eyes.

 

In terms of the termination issue, I think unions are a necessary safe guard from unfair labor practices. That doesn't mean, however, that under performing teachers should get a free pass from scrutiny and, if necessary, termination. Protections should still remain in place, however, the principals put in charge of these schools have the best ability to observe and value the services that their teachers provide. I think they should have the right to terminate a teacher if they think they aren't up to the task. I don't think a principal is going to go out of his/her way to terminate a teacher, unless there is a reason to do so.

[greg775]

Its not unfortunate. Unions used to make sense, now they fight for more rights then regular humans get. Unions werent created so that workers could get better perks than everyone, they were created so they could get equal treatment.

 

Are you the working police? How do you determine whether I am working or not?

 

Technically while you are typing on Soxtalk you are not working unless you are on the phone talking to a client or coworker while simultaneously typing on this board. However seconds after you type on soxtalk you can be working.

[Soxbadger]

Union members are "regular humans." But unions were the ones to first fight, often literally, for the workers' rights we all enjoy. Unions still make sense since management still has immensely more bargaining power than labor. Labor struggle isn't about equal treatment (it's not a discrimination/civil rights movement) but bargaining power for labor, and most workers, especially with the decline of unions, do not have that. The first unionized shops that were able to stand against violent crackdowns had better perks than everyone else, but their power and their influence grew to the point that 5-day, 40-hour weeks are the norm along with a host of other accomplishments.

 

I find it disheartening that the typical response to one group of workers having comparatively better wages, benefits, employment protections and bargaining power is for other groups of workers to tear them down, to decry them for not suffering like the rest of us.

 

I understand unions, but you really need to differentiate between public sector unions and private sector unions. Unions were created so that private companies couldnt screw employees. Unions were not set up so that a small group of people can leverage the good of society for a raise. I have no problem with unions, see the Scott Walker thread. I have a problem with unions that are greedy and make a bad name for other unions. I have a problem with unions that set up a system to protect their own at the expense of society.

 

I find it disheartening that you cant differentiate situations.

 

Somewhere between believing that workers should accept whatever s*** deal management hands them and stopping the continual decline of the middle class and impoverishment of the working and non-working poor.

 

But in this situation there are no fat cats. Management is the people of Chicago. This isnt Standard Oil making $100bil in profits while their employees die on an oil rig. This is a company that is bleeding money, where the employees want more.

 

Its not always the same, you have to differentiate.

[Balta1701]

Does anyone have a reference for the "the average teacher in chicago makes $74k" number?

 

I'm going through the BLS tables, it's a nightmare to figure out, but they list something like 200k teachers in the chicago area and show an average teacher salary of $56k, with a wide distribution depending on specialty.

[iamshack]

I'd like to point out again that one of the things they're striking over is classroom size and keeping it down. That's directly beneficial to the students.

I'm sure that is what their concern is, too.

 

Honestly, some of your sympathies for teachers is that they can't step away to the water cooler or to post on message boards? I know that was a bit in jest, but seriously, many, many people have difficult jobs. How'd you like to be an ironworker? Do you think they are able to post on Soxtalk too? Their days are now 60 minutes longer? So what, do they work 9 hour days now? Boohoo.

 

How about the poor teachers working in parochial schools making $28k to start...are they able to post on soxtalk?

 

I think average teacher works about half the year. Maybe that is why they have to work longer days.

[EvilMonkey]

Does anyone have a reference for the "the average teacher in chicago makes $74k" number?

 

I'm going through the BLS tables, it's a nightmare to figure out, but they list something like 200k teachers in the chicago area and show an average teacher salary of $56k, with a wide distribution depending on specialty.

http://www.ctunet.com/grievances/text/2007....pdf?1294199486

 

Says that FIRST year teachers in 2012 were making over $50k, so the average has to be higher that $56k. (see Appendix A)

[Soxbadger]

Iamshack,

 

We should all be fighting for vacations. Instead of being responsible and realizing that people need to work so s*** gets done, we should all just fight to not work.

 

Who is coming with me!

 

My new union, The Every Worker Union, refuses to let any worker work who does not get 2 months summer vacation, 2 weeks winter vacation and 1 week spring vacation.

 

What, you say the company will shut down if we have no workers in the summer, STRIKE!

 

The problem here is that unlike a regular business, where if the worker goes to far they lose their job, this job is guaranteed. No matter how bad they screw it up, there is still going to be a CPS tomorrow. There is absolutely no risk for these teachers, and that is the problem.

 

In order for their to be equal bargain, there has to be a risk that if the worker asks for to much, the business fails. Can Rahm really declare CPS over, and just tell parents to "Deal with it."

[MurcieOne]

Does anyone have a reference for the "the average teacher in chicago makes $74k" number?

 

I'm going through the BLS tables, it's a nightmare to figure out, but they list something like 200k teachers in the chicago area and show an average teacher salary of $56k, with a wide distribution depending on specialty.

 

I haven't looked up figures from any internal reports, however, I was referencing this article: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how...-teachers-make/

 

There is some dispute depending on which side you ask; CPS states that the average teacher makes 76,000 per year, while an attorney for the CTU says it's more like 71,000.

 

Either way, they currently rank either 1st or 2nd in the nation (according to the article).

[StrangeSox]

I'm sure that is what their concern is, too.

 

Can you say that it's not?

 

Honestly, some of your sympathies for teachers is that they can't step away to the water cooler or to post on message boards?

 

It was meant to point out that they can't take mental breaks throughout the day like a lot of professionals can. Are you at work right now, posting on SoxTalk instead of doing your job? A teacher doesn't have that luxury throughout the day. Yes, they get more time off, but when they're at work, they're working, not dicking around on the internet.

 

I know that was a bit in jest, but seriously, many, many people have difficult jobs. How'd you like to be an ironworker? Do you think they are able to post on Soxtalk too? Their days are now 60 minutes longer? So what, do they work 9 hour days now? Boohoo.

 

How often have you worked at job sites? Let's just say that while there's difficult work, there's often a lot of standing around. On top of that, ironworkers are often unionized and would be striking as well if they were suddenly being required to work 25% longer with no additional compensation or improved working conditions.

 

How about the poor teachers working in parochial schools making $28k to start...are they able to post on soxtalk?

 

No. Unfortunately, many private schools do not have unionization, but that's an excellent example of why unions aren't an anachronistic holdover and why they're still important.

 

I think average teacher works about half the year. Maybe that is why they have to work longer days.

 

You'd think wrong.