CTU is Going on Strike

[StrangeSox]

This was a stupid counter argument.

 

I base it on the fact that this is EXACTLY what unions do via collective bargaining, over and over. You don't need to be a mind reader to see it, either, you just have to open your eyes, which you've shown you won't do with that ridiculous post.

You seem pretty oblivious to the negotiations thus far.

[StrangeSox]

This is a completely different argument now.

 

There was once a use for such unions, that use no longer exists. They're now corrupted, bureaucratic demonizations of what they were originally created to be. And again, if you can't see that, it's because you're sticking your head in the sand purposefully.

 

Businesses CANNOT and would not, in this country, get away with 7 day work weeks, no-child labor laws, etc...all illegal now, with or without unions.

labor bargaining doesn't stop.

 

Look at the nhl and nfl lockouts. Owners value all going up, specially in the nfl, yet they are still trying to extract every last penny. Or what caterpillar is doing to their workers despite record profits and huge state tax breaks.

 

If you really think that unions only negotiate over pay and that they aren't necessary to fight for other workplace rights, I'd suggest that you study some modern labor relations in this country.

Edited September 18, 2012 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Wait, that sounds like the opposite of everything that's been said here? Everything I've raid says that the strike has to be about payroll and that they can't strike over "Class sizes and evaluations", so to deal with the toher issues they have to have payroll issues included. Am I wrong?

You are correct, it is illegal for them to strike over non-economic issues like classroom size.

[StrangeSox]

Apples and oranges. Banning child labor and sweat shops and reducing class sizes by 3-5 students are two entirely different things. Unions were needed when coal towns raped their workers in every possible way. That never happens now because of the massive shift in labor laws in this country. Unions now are just as corrupt as the employers they are negotiating with.

You might want to read about modern life in coal Towns and mine safety records.

 

Or go read those Crooked Timber posts I've linked to as a primer on modern workplace rights and coercion.

[StrangeSox]

My point was simply this.

 

They're being greedy douchebags just like the LF teachers are being, only the LF teachers are being more up front about it.

 

That is all.

But your point is, simply put, nonsense. You are ignoring 99% of the story to make it fit your narrative.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, please give me an example of where a company literally owns a town (the bar, grocery store, etc) and employs 90% of the population. Please give me an example of anything close to that in the last 30 years.

I can give you examples of hundreds of mine safety violations, worker deaths,a roaring comeback of black lung, environmental destruction and pollution of local water and food sources and continued poverty while mining companies make huge profits.

[Jenksismyhero]

I can give you examples of hundreds of mine safety violations, worker deaths,a roaring comeback of black lung, environmental destruction and pollution of local water and food sources and continued poverty while mining companies make huge profits.

 

All of which have specific labor law and compensation legislation. s***ty job conditions =/= no rights or alternatives.

[StrangeSox]

All of which have specific labor law and compensation legislation. s***ty job conditions =/= no rights or alternatives.

And who is more likely to be able to stand up for their rights? An individual worker or a collective group? And what about fighting for better wages and conditions beyond the bare legal minimum?

 

For many people, though, there aren't alternatives in coal (or timber or factory etc) Towns. You work in the mines or *maybe* in some local store that can only exist because of the mining presence. Until the mine closes and the town is left to decay.

[southsider2k5]

You are correct, it is illegal for them to strike over non-economic issues like classroom size.

 

Eh, I got that backwards.

[southsider2k5]

And who is more likely to be able to stand up for their rights? An individual worker or a collective group? And what about fighting for better wages and conditions beyond the bare legal minimum?

 

For many people, though, there aren't alternatives in coal (or timber or factory etc) Towns. You work in the mines or *maybe* in some local store that can only exist because of the mining presence. Until the mine closes and the town is left to decay.

 

The biggest difference here is that every single taxpayer in the City of Chicago has a vested interest here. They should get a say here.

[StrangeSox]

The biggest difference here is that every single taxpayer in the City of Chicago has a vested interest here. They should get a say here.

In what way? Put all public contracts to a vote?

 

The collective "the taxpayers" is usually not a smart group. See California and all of their unfunded referendums combined with strict tax and budgeting restrictions eg prop 13

Edited September 18, 2012 by StrangeSox

[Y2HH]

But your point is, simply put, nonsense. You are ignoring 99% of the story to make it fit your narrative.

 

We disagree. You're point is what is, simply put, nonsense. Not only that, but you have an inherent bias here, and it shows. The story fits my narrative because teachers are greedy douchebags that don't deserve a raise, during of all times, a recession that has 8+% of the country out of work, and huge deficits, pension shortfalls, etc.

 

The CPS teachers want more money for less work, and a better all around situation for THEMSELVES. Don't f***ing stand there and pretend they're doing this for the children. This is the same bulls*** argument they're using, and it's a lie.

 

Just can it.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Thus decreed y2hh, and it was so.

[Y2HH]

Thus decreed y2hh, and it was so.

 

Thus decreed StrangeSox, and it was so.

 

That's easy to do.

 

And ignorant.

[ptatc]

We disagree. You're point is what is, simply put, nonsense. Not only that, but you have an inherent bias here, and it shows. The story fits my narrative because teachers are greedy douchebags that don't deserve a raise.

 

The CPS teachers want more money for less work, and a better all around situation for THEMSELVES. Don't f***ing stand there and pretend they'red oing this for the children.

 

Just can it.

This is incorrect. The money involved is already agreed upon. It's the evaluation procedure that is the key. The teachers want a say in what the principal deems "effective teaching." The class size is also an issue. If you've ever been in a room with 35 kids, you know how difficult it would be to be an "effective instructor." That is an impossible situation.

Edited September 18, 2012 by ptatc

[Jenksismyhero]

And who is more likely to be able to stand up for their rights? An individual worker or a collective group? And what about fighting for better wages and conditions beyond the bare legal minimum?

 

For many people, though, there aren't alternatives in coal (or timber or factory etc) Towns. You work in the mines or *maybe* in some local store that can only exist because of the mining presence. Until the mine closes and the town is left to decay.

 

Every state, as far as I know, has a workers compensation system. Every state, as far as I know, has a state's attorneys office that takes complaints of issues with businesses. There are a myriad of state and federal laws covering work conditions. People have a number of options to be covered under the law. Whether or not they like their wage is no different than every other person in this country. If you don't like it, move. Get a different job. Go back to school and get a degree in something different. I know, I know. Crab mentality, right?

 

You also have to address the other extreme with unions, which is on full display in a union town like Chicago. At some point unions are TOO good at what they do and they start to hurt everyone else. (Anecdotal observation alert!) My law firm moved offices last year. Guess what, gotta hire a union moving company! We wanted to install a door lock. Guess what, gotta hire a union electrician! And you know what? They were all CRAZY f***ing expensive because the unions have negotiated so well. Paying 4k for 3 union electricians to sit around and install a simple electronic door lock is f***ing asinine, but that's reality downtown. But what can you do about it? Can't disband the union. Can't possibly reduce rates or benefits. Can't cut them out of certain jobs. You're stuck paying the inflated price.

 

[Y2HH]

But your point is, simply put, nonsense. You are ignoring 99% of the story to make it fit your narrative.

 

Tell me what I'm ignoring then...it's glaring that you never do.

 

What, exactly, are the teachers doing here that isn't for themselves that, in some way, equates to them making more money, for less or easier jobs?

[StrangeSox]

Thus decreed StrangeSox, and it was so.

 

That's easy to do.

 

And ignorant.

Do you actually want to understand what they are striking over or just keep insisting that it's only about money those greedy assholes.

[Iwritecode]

There are a lot more options in the summer.

 

 

Summer camp, summer jobs, a million other things that people plan for. Some parents get part time jobs during the school year.

 

I'm not even talking about the summer. I'm talking about all the days during the school year that kids get off. There are a lot of them. For example my kids are only in school for 3 days next week.

 

There are parent-teacher conference days, institute days, holidays that most people don't get off (Columbus Day, Veteran's day), etc...

[Y2HH]

Do you actually want to understand what they are striking over or just keep insisting that it's only about money those greedy assholes.

 

I do understand what they're striking over, and it's money and benefits.

 

[StrangeSox]

Tell me what I'm ignoring then...it's glaring that you never do.

 

What, exactly, are the teachers doing here that isn't for themselves that, in some way, equates to them making more money, for less or easier jobs?

Classroom size and evaluation methodology, rehiring procedures, school nurses and counselors, libraries in every school,ac.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I do understand what they're striking over, and it's money and benefits.

Nope!

 

Go watch those Chicago tonight segments from last week that i linked to.

[Y2HH]

Nope!

 

Go watch those Chicago tonight segments from last week that i linked to.

 

Every last thing you just listed in that post above is a f***ing benefit to them.

 

Again, I repeat, stop hiding behind the children like little b****es, which is exactly what they're doing. At least I can respect the LF teachers for their greed and lack of bulls*** surrounding it.

[StrangeSox]

Every state, as far as I know, has a workers compensation system. Every state, as far as I know, has a state's attorneys office that takes complaints of issues with businesses. There are a myriad of state and federal laws covering work conditions. People have a number of options to be covered under the law. Whether or not they like their wage is no different than every other person in this country. If you don't like it, move. Get a different job. Go back to school and get a degree in something different. I know, I know. Crab mentality, right?

 

Read some literature on modern life in Appalachia. not everyone has the opportunities and advantages we did growing up.

You also have to address the other extreme with unions, which is on full display in a union town like Chicago. At some point unions are TOO good at what they do and they start to hurt everyone else. (Anecdotal observation alert!) My law firm moved offices last year. Guess what, gotta hire a union moving company! We wanted to install a door lock. Guess what, gotta hire a union electrician! And you know what? They were all CRAZY f***ing expensive because the unions have negotiated so well. Paying 4k for 3 union electricians to sit around and install a simple electronic door lock is f***ing asinine, but that's reality downtown. But what can you do about it? Can't disband the union. Can't possibly reduce rates or benefits. Can't cut them out of certain jobs. You're stuck paying the inflated price.

 

Better in an electricians pocket, supporting the middle class and circulating back t through the economy than in some rich guys offshore tax haven.

[StrangeSox]

Every last thing you just listed in that post above is a f***ing benefit to them.

 

Again, I repeat, stop hiding behind the children like little b****es, which is exactly what they're doing. At least I can respect the LF teachers for their greed and lack of bulls*** surrounding it.

Only if you conflate everything as a "benefit"

 

But then I'd ask you to define something that benefits the children that wouldn't benefit the teachers that they could strike over. We should be wanting to make their jobs easier so that they are more effective.