CTU is Going on Strike

[NorthSideSox72]

I think there are a lot of good things in here for teacher evaluation, and chicago will continue it's climb in educating it's students.

 

But notice how the strike ended despite there still being overcrowded classrooms and other outcomes "for the kids". Those were red herrings.

The CTU did specifically ask for class size limits, and CPS was saying they could not do that. I am not sure who won out there, have you read the entire contract?

 

[bmags]

The CTU did specifically ask for class size limits, and CPS was saying they could not do that. I am not sure who won out there, have you read the entire contract?

 

NPR reported this morning that those conditions were not met. And considering the strike is over, I think it's fair to say that the teachers in front of the TVs who said they were striking because of class conditions, were really just saying that because they knew it was their most sympathetic point. But clearly they were striking for their pay packages and evaluations.

[Y2HH]

NPR reported this morning that those conditions were not met. And considering the strike is over, I think it's fair to say that the teachers in front of the TVs who said they were striking because of class conditions, were really just saying that because they knew it was their most sympathetic point. But clearly they were striking for their pay packages and evaluations.

 

This was the point I made yesterday, but I was called stupid/insane for making it.

 

...only happens that yes, I was right. It was nothing more that what you said.

[NorthSideSox72]

NPR reported this morning that those conditions were not met. And considering the strike is over, I think it's fair to say that the teachers in front of the TVs who said they were striking because of class conditions, were really just saying that because they knew it was their most sympathetic point. But clearly they were striking for their pay packages and evaluations.

That was a big part of it of course, yes. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. But looking at the facts of all the things they were contesting, I think it is clear they wanted more than just that. People would love it to be simple, though.

 

[Y2HH]

That was a big part of it of course, yes. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. But looking at the facts of all the things they were contesting, I think it is clear they wanted more than just that. People would love it to be simple, though.

 

I think the point is, and the point I was trying to make, that while these other things would be nice...it wasn't their primary goal. IMO, it was subterfuge at it's best...or worst, depending on your view of this.

[mr_genius]

That was a big part of it of course, yes. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. But looking at the facts of all the things they were contesting, I think it is clear they wanted more than just that. People would love it to be simple, though.

 

It was all about money and entitlements. These teachers don't care about kids learning.

[mr_genius]

I think the point is, and the point I was trying to make, that while these other things would be nice...it wasn't their primary goal. IMO, it was subterfuge at it's best...or worst, depending on your view of this.

 

It was a dishonest talking point.

[bmags]

That was a big part of it of course, yes. I don't think anyone has said otherwise. But looking at the facts of all the things they were contesting, I think it is clear they wanted more than just that. People would love it to be simple, though.

 

I'm responding to all of those "YOU NEED TO EDUCATE YOURSELF" pictures that were going around, that made it seem like the teachers were standing up to the city over condiitons in the classroom.

 

What were they most willing to concede on?

 

Classroom conditions.

 

It says a lot.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think the point is, and the point I was trying to make, that while these other things would be nice...it wasn't their primary goal. IMO, it was subterfuge at it's best...or worst, depending on your view of this.

 

I don't think it was a red herring or anything like it - I think they wanted all those things.

 

I'm responding to all of those "YOU NEED TO EDUCATE YOURSELF" pictures that were going around, that made it seem like the teachers were standing up to the city over condiitons in the classroom.

 

What were they most willing to concede on?

 

Classroom conditions.

 

It says a lot.

 

Well sure, the people saying it wasn't about money were being false. Money was a big part of it. But I know enough teachers to know that it wasn't all of it. This picture some people are painting that all these teachers just wanted more money is as false as the idea that money wasn't a real concern. People don't teach to make boatloads of cash.

 

Basically, I was responding to this type of thing...

 

It was all about money and entitlements. These teachers don't care about kids learning.

 

Which, as I said, is just as false as saying it wasn't about money.

 

[Y2HH]

I don't think it was a red herring or anything like it - I think they wanted all those things.

 

 

 

Well sure, the people saying it wasn't about money were being false. Money was a big part of it. But I know enough teachers to know that it wasn't all of it. This picture some people are painting that all these teachers just wanted more money is as false as the idea that money wasn't a real concern. People don't teach to make boatloads of cash.

 

Basically, I was responding to this type of thing...

 

 

 

Which, as I said, is just as false as saying it wasn't about money.

 

I don't agree with what he said about the teachers not caring about the kids learning at all...but I also believe that if they had gotten raises, they never would have went on strike for the other things, because they weren't the important factors of the strike...they were simply used as additional bargaining chips.

[bmags]

I don't agree with what he said about the teachers not caring about the kids learning at all...but I also believe that if they had gotten raises, they never would have went on strike for the other things, because they weren't the important factors of the strike...they were simply used as additional bargaining chips.

 

Right, I"m on the same page with you. I know enough teachers to know that they care dearly about their kids, and frankly they are good teachers! But, the reason they started the strike, it's fair to say at this point, was exclusively about their benefits and salary.

 

They may care about those things, but they weren't striking over those things.

[Balta1701]

I don't agree with what he said about the teachers not caring about the kids learning at all...but I also believe that if they had gotten raises, they never would have went on strike for the other things, because they weren't the important factors of the strike...they were simply used as additional bargaining chips.

And also because...they legally can't strike for other reasons.

[Y2HH]

And also because...they legally can't strike for other reasons.

 

I get that, but even if they could they wouldn't...this was about money, and the rest of the reasons were used to cover for that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have compromised on one the major issues, such as class size, which is what happened. Shows they didn't care about class size, and it was merely used as a bargaining chip.

[Balta1701]

I get that, but even if they could they wouldn't...this was about money, and the rest of the reasons were used to cover for that. Otherwise, they wouldn't have compromised on one the major issues, such as class size, which is what happened. Shows they didn't care about class size, and it was merely used as a bargaining chip.

The other question of course is what the trade-off would have been. Without being behind the scenes, you can't say which things the city might have been most adamantly opposed to.

 

Decreasing class size doesn't just require more teachers, it requires more classrooms, more buildings, more facilities. There's a tradeoff at the management level too. The City has certain plans for certain numbers of buildings over the next 4 years, and increasing the number of classes is a substantial extra commitment for them.

[southsider2k5]

The other question of course is what the trade-off would have been. Without being behind the scenes, you can't say which things the city might have been most adamantly opposed to.

 

Decreasing class size doesn't just require more teachers, it requires more classrooms, more buildings, more facilities. There's a tradeoff at the management level too. The City has certain plans for certain numbers of buildings over the next 4 years, and increasing the number of classes is a substantial extra commitment for them.

 

Too bad they spent all that money on raises... Maybe they could have hired more teachers and aids instead. The other problem with that statement is that they have a huge amount of excess capacity, mostly due to falling populations.

 

http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/www...hiladelphia.pdf

 

Chicago also still has excess capacity. Officials there estimated that there were more than 100,000 empty seats in the public school system in 2011, about 20 percent of total capacity.

[Balta1701]

Too bad they spent all that money on raises... Maybe they could have hired more teachers and aids instead. The other problem with that statement is that they have a huge amount of excess capacity, mostly due to falling populations.

 

http://www.pewtrusts.org/uploadedFiles/www...hiladelphia.pdf

Which neglects the School Closing issue, which the Union leader called "The elephant in the room" during those negotaitions, but whatever.

[southsider2k5]

Which neglects the School Closing issue, which the Union leader called "The elephant in the room" during those negotaitions, but whatever.

 

If it were that important, don't ask for the raises. The teachers chose raises over classroom size via school closings or other means.

 

Once you get to a certain point of population, closings become necessary. The same thing happens when your payroll eats up too much of your tax base and you have no other choices. An excess capacity of 20% or 100,000 students means you are wasting money on facilities that could be going to educate the kids that are still there.

[Jenksismyhero]

Anyone else think that given the 1 billion dollar deficit in the CPS budget that Rahm would just close the entire system and start up charter schools instead? Rehire the same teachers sans union, and then have complete control over everything. Probably would be best long term for the City.

[StrangeSox]

I don't agree with what he said about the teachers not caring about the kids learning at all...but I also believe that if they had gotten raises, they never would have went on strike for the other things, because they weren't the important factors of the strike...they were simply used as additional bargaining chips.

the evaluation standards were a lot more important than the raises, imo. It's still a teacher-focused issue, though.

 

[StrangeSox]

Anyone else think that given the 1 billion dollar deficit in the CPS budget that Rahm would just close the entire system and start up charter schools instead? Rehire the same teachers sans union, and then have complete control over everything. Probably would be best long term for the City.

 

Semi-privatized authoritarian regime headed by Rahm Emmanuel would be the worst for everyone regardless of location or circumstance.

[NorthSideSox72]

Anyone else think that given the 1 billion dollar deficit in the CPS budget that Rahm would just close the entire system and start up charter schools instead? Rehire the same teachers sans union, and then have complete control over everything. Probably would be best long term for the City.

 

Completely impractical. You really think you can start up a few hundred charter schools in any short period of time? Who will run them? This would take years, and you'd have utter pandemonium in the meantime. They are instead slowly sliding that way, which is really the only way to do it. It also allows you to control things better, seeing what works and doesn't as you build, etc.

 

Semi-privatized authoritarian regime headed by Rahm Emmanuel would be the worst for everyone regardless of location or circumstance.

 

Not sure I agree with that. Frankly, the CPS just hasn't done a great job with the resources they have. And yes, I am aware of and agree with the thought that in SOME areas, they do not have enough resources.

 

[StrangeSox]

Rahm Emmanuel with unchecked power, regardless of the situation (not specifically talking schools here), is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Jenksismyhero]

Completely impractical. You really think you can start up a few hundred charter schools in any short period of time? Who will run them? This would take years, and you'd have utter pandemonium in the meantime. They are instead slowly sliding that way, which is really the only way to do it. It also allows you to control things better, seeing what works and doesn't as you build, etc.

 

 

 

Not sure I agree with that. Frankly, the CPS just hasn't done a great job with the resources they have. And yes, I am aware of and agree with the thought that in SOME areas, they do not have enough resources.

 

Why not? There are already model schools out there, borrow their charters. Just say "hey this CPS school is not a charter school." Boom. Done.

[StrangeSox]

You know what would be great for students? A completey disgruntled workforce and Rahm with no checks.

[DukeNukeEm]

I think we've learned the hard way that the teachers are going to be disgruntled no matter what.