CTU is Going on Strike

[Harry Chappas]

This is about all I needed to see.

 

Here are some interesting stats

http://www.cps.edu/about_cps/at-a-glance/p..._and_facts.aspx

 

and a nice blog

http://www.chicagonow.com/windy-city-young...r-compensation/

 

Ah yes the Chicago Teachers Union.

[Soxbadger]

Strangesox,

 

I get that you have a vested interest in this subject, but some of your statements are just misleading. Teachers do get breaks during the day. I have never met a teacher, at any level, who lectured 8 hours straight no stops.

 

Not to mention we have different expectations. I cant blame anyone else, there is no student, parent, etc not paying attention. Its simply, I win or I lose. If I win more because I come on Soxtalk and work out my issues by arguing here instead of fighting in the office with other co-workers, that is doing my job.

[StrangeSox]

They get lunch breaks, but so do most workers. They're required to be "on" more constantly than many other professions.

[CrimsonWeltall]

It was meant to point out that they can't take mental breaks throughout the day like a lot of professionals can. Are you at work right now, posting on SoxTalk instead of doing your job? A teacher doesn't have that luxury throughout the day. Yes, they get more time off, but when they're at work, they're working, not dicking around on the internet.

 

When I was in high school, teachers had office hours and if they didn't have a lot of students coming in during that time, they could chat with other teachers or be on their computer. Teachers regularly read books or magazines in class while we took quizzes and tests or did work. This was over 10 years ago. With smart phones and other mobile devices, I'm sure they can be getting quick fixes even more easily.

 

Sorry, there's no way you're convincing me that teachers have no mental breaks. I'm sure it's not as many as those of us with sitting-at-a-computer jobs, but it's not 8 hours in a coal mine either.

[Soxbadger]

They get lunch breaks, but so do most workers. They're required to be "on" more constantly than many other professions.

 

Silent reading?

 

Class taking test?

 

Gym class, music class, video?

 

Im just confused as to what you are considering working. If its "sitting in the classroom watching kids" then yes they are working constantly. But thats no different than sitting in an office reading my email, listening to voice mail or any of the other million mundane activities I do while I post on soxtalk.

[LittleHurt05]

No. Unfortunately, many private schools do not have unionization, but that's an excellent example of why unions aren't an anachronistic holdover and why they're still important.

 

That shows a major problem with the teachers union. The City of Chicago is broke, yet is forced to pay these teachers way higher than the going market rate because of the union. That in turn puts the city into greater debt, forcing them to raise property taxes on their citizens.

[Soxbadger]

That shows a major problem with the teachers union. The City of Chicago is broke, yet is forced to pay these teachers way higher than the going market rate because of the union. That in turn puts the city into greater debt, forcing them to raise property taxes on their citizens.

 

No, instead of actually fixing issues, we should all fight to get paid what our employer cant pay so we can bankrupt the system.

 

Unions for all!

[StrangeSox]

soxbadger, every post you make during working hours only helps my point.

[iamshack]

Can you say that it's not?

 

 

 

It was meant to point out that they can't take mental breaks throughout the day like a lot of professionals can. Are you at work right now, posting on SoxTalk instead of doing your job? A teacher doesn't have that luxury throughout the day. Yes, they get more time off, but when they're at work, they're working, not dicking around on the internet.

 

 

 

How often have you worked at job sites? Let's just say that while there's difficult work, there's often a lot of standing around. On top of that, ironworkers are often unionized and would be striking as well if they were suddenly being required to work 25% longer with no additional compensation or improved working conditions.

 

 

 

No. Unfortunately, many private schools do not have unionization, but that's an excellent example of why unions aren't an anachronistic holdover and why they're still important.

 

 

 

You'd think wrong.

Oh this is such bs...they take mental breaks all the time...They give tests, assign their students time to read, etc., etc. I've dated plenty of teachers, btw...they have plenty of time to text me all f***ing day while I am trying to work. The fact that they aren't able to post on Soxtalk all day like you and I boils down to the fact that they don't work at computers all day with internet access, not because they have some terrible working conditions.

 

Yes, they have to stay in the classroom and supervise, but they probably don't have to do some of the difficult things I have to do during my day, either. I'm sure they aren't reading through FERC Orders all day or trying to explain to attorneys why we our electric system doesn't work the way some regulator in Washington DC wants it to. Most of us have good and bad things about our jobs. Teachers are no different.

 

I've got two very good friends that are ironworkers. I know they are not always "laboring." It's also one of the most dangerous jobs in this country...but I suppose that is outweighed by the teachers who risk their lives every day with those difficult algebraic equations.

 

I admire teachers for what they do, I don't mean to imply that I don't. As someone who holds a worthless History degree, that is one of the career paths available to me. I chose against it because adolescent children piss me off.

[SoxFan1]

This is about all I needed to see.

 

Here are some interesting stats

http://www.cps.edu/about_cps/at-a-glance/p..._and_facts.aspx

 

and a nice blog

http://www.chicagonow.com/windy-city-young...r-compensation/

 

Ah yes the Chicago Teachers Union.

So according to the CPS, the average annual income makes a shade under $75,000 a year. Not so bad for working 9 months a year.

[SoxFan1]

soxbadger, every post you make during working hours only helps my point.

Not even in the slightest.

 

You are at WORK. You are being paid to do a JOB.

 

That is part of the problem with this country. "I don't have any down time when I'm at work!" That's because you should be busy WORKING.

[StrangeSox]

Not even in the slightest.

 

You are at WORK. You are being paid to do a JOB.

 

That is part of the problem with this country. "I don't have any down time when I'm at work!" That's because you should be busy WORKING.

 

Uh, yeah, that's the point. By the nature of their job, teachers can't waste nearly as much time at work as every one of us posting in this thread right now (I'm off today, so I'm only wasting my own time!)

[iamshack]

Uh, yeah, that's the point. By the nature of their job, teachers can't waste nearly as much time at work as every one of us posting in this thread right now (I'm off today, so I'm only wasting my own time!)

So they waste all kinds of time differently. This is not a particularly good argument for them going on strike.

 

We are exercising our minds by engaging in this debate, btw...it's not as though we are watching porn (you may be, since you are at home

[SoxFan1]

Uh, yeah, that's the point. By the nature of their job, teachers can't waste nearly as much time at work as every one of us posting in this thread right now (I'm off today, so I'm only wasting my own time!)

Do you realize how silly this is? "Well, he's wasting time on his job so I wanna be able to waste time too! It's not fair that he doesn't have to work hard!"

 

You have a three month vacation every year! Plus winter break and spring break.

[StrangeSox]

Oh this is such bs...they take mental breaks all the time...They give tests, assign their students time to read, etc., etc. I've dated plenty of teachers, btw...they have plenty of time to text me all f***ing day while I am trying to work. The fact that they aren't able to post on Soxtalk all day like you and I boils down to the fact that they don't work at computers all day with internet access, not because they have some terrible working conditions.

 

Yes, they have to stay in the classroom and supervise, but they probably don't have to do some of the difficult things I have to do during my day, either. I'm sure they aren't reading through FERC Orders all day or trying to explain to attorneys why we our electric system doesn't work the way some regulator in Washington DC wants it to. Most of us have good and bad things about our jobs. Teachers are no different.

 

I've got two very good friends that are ironworkers. I know they are not always "laboring." It's also one of the most dangerous jobs in this country...but I suppose that is outweighed by the teachers who risk their lives every day with those difficult algebraic equations.

 

I admire teachers for what they do, I don't mean to imply that I don't. As someone who holds a worthless History degree, that is one of the career paths available to me. I chose against it because adolescent children piss me off.

 

I haven't been saying that teachers have some terrible working conditions, just that, when they're at work, they're required to be "on" more than many other professionals. I haven't said that their jobs are the most difficult in the world nor dangerous.

[SoxFan1]

I haven't been saying that teachers have some terrible working conditions, just that, when they're at work, they're required to be "on" more than many other professionals. I haven't said that their jobs are the most difficult in the world nor dangerous.

Here's my question: when they accepted the position of being a teacher, did they not know the conditions of their work hours beforehand?

[StrangeSox]

Do you realize how silly this is? "Well, he's wasting time on his job so I wanna be able to waste time too! It's not fair that he doesn't have to work hard!"

 

You have a three month vacation every year! Plus winter break and spring break.

 

You're missing the point, which is that teachers can't slack off nearly as much as many other professions, and that needs to be taken into account if you're going to point out the time they get off.

 

Contract hours for teachers are somewhere around 1200 a year versus the 2080 for your standard 40-hour work week employee. Different studies have found that when you take into account non-contract hours (grading at home/staying late etc.), teachers work something like 1600 hours a year. It's less than your typical 9-5 year-round job, but my point is that those hours they are working are often more productive than other professions.

[StrangeSox]

Here's my question: when they accepted the position of being a teacher, did they not know the conditions of their work hours beforehand?

 

They did! But now CPS is trying to change them without additional compensation.

 

(For the record, my wife doesn't work for CPS and is less pro-union than I am. My stance isn't because of my wife's profession.)

[iamshack]

They did! But now CPS is trying to change them without additional compensation.

 

(For the record, my wife doesn't work for CPS and is less pro-union than I am. My stance isn't because of my wife's profession.)

Yeah, welcome to life on earth.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, welcome to life on earth.

 

Life on earth, where labor can strike to protest unfair treatment thanks to previous generations' often-bloody struggles.

[Soxbadger]

soxbadger, every post you make during working hours only helps my point.

 

Im on the phone with someone, how is that helping your point?

 

I guess unlike a teacher, I can discuss a foreclosure while posting on a message board.

 

Not exactly rocket science here. And if we are comparing to teachers, when is the last time a teacher got a call from a student at 3 am Sunday morning? Can you name a time when a teacher had to sit by the door at a restaurant on Friday night because they may get a call? Or that they couldnt go to the movies because their phone needed to be on.

 

Youre better off sticking with the "Everyone should have it as good as teachers" argument, as opposed to the "teachers work harder than you do." Because trying to argue both, is going to sink either.

 

 

[SoxFan1]

If I had kids in the CPS system, I know I'd be livid today.

[southsider2k5]

I haven't looked up figures from any internal reports, however, I was referencing this article: http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/12/how...-teachers-make/

 

There is some dispute depending on which side you ask; CPS states that the average teacher makes 76,000 per year, while an attorney for the CTU says it's more like 71,000.

 

Either way, they currently rank either 1st or 2nd in the nation (according to the article).

 

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ecec.nr0.htm

 

And that is average salary, not average compensation. With the generous pension, plus what the Chicago taxpayers pick up in insurance costs, that number is a lot higher than $76/71k a year. Odds are the compensation package is at least double that $76/71k to pay for those benefits.

 

The last numbers I could find put the average cost of a private employee at just under $29 an hour to a company, which works out to something like $58k a year in average costs for an employee while the average salary in this country is $41k, or just over $20 an hour. That means $9 an hour goes to the non-salary payments for an employee. Even taking the teachers number of $76k as $38 an hour, and adding the private sector number of $9 an hour to pay for all of the non salary items that makes $47 an hour, or $94k a year.

 

Health care costs for union employees alone on average were $5 per hour for an employer, or about $3 an hour higher than the private sector. that would push the number to $50 an hour already, or $100k a year. If the earlier anecdote about teachers in Chicago only paying 2% of their own medical cost, that number is probably higher as well.

 

Pension costs are also a big number, that private sector employees don't have at all, so that would push the compensation number up higher.

 

The real cost for teachers in Chicago has got somewhere around $60 an hour, maybe more, putting them at over $120k per year in total compensation, or about double the private sector average.

 

Looking up average numbers by income groups, I could only get to 2008, but the average household income at the 80th percentile was just over $79k. That is income, and not including all of the out of pocket benefits, and we are only talking about one teacher here. That means the average Chicago teacher by themselves is earning a salary that is equivalent to more than 80% of the entire nations households. That is without a second income in their household, and without consideration to the extra compensation a teacher gets for their non-payroll items, that the vast majority of the country doesn't get.

 

At the end of the day the Chicago teachers are probably somewhere in the range of top 10 to 15% of individual compensation earners in the entire country.

[SoxFan1]

To be perfectly fair to the teachers (of whom I know plenty, I'm a product of the CPS system), the top complaint isn't their salaries, rather it is class sizes and overall working conditions/environments for the students.

[bmags]

To be perfectly fair to the teachers (of whom I know plenty, I'm a product of the CPS system), the top complaint isn't their salaries, rather it is class sizes and overall working conditions/environments for the students.

 

I know they love this talking point, but the majority of the money going to the schools is ending up in their hands. If they brought a budget to the CPS taht said "okay, we won't take a raise as long as you promise to decrease class sizes and add desks" you don't think CPS would be all over that?