Awful Game

[greg775]

Poor crowd. Peavy choked in a big game yet again. Hitting approach was awful. Everything went 0-2 on us tonight. Bullpen wasn't great either though when you use 100 different pitchers someone is bound to screw up.

 

 

And Robin Ventura...Oh boy. Can't wait to read through the gamethread's thoughts on him.

Great post. Sox fans are getting fed up with these choke jobs against Detroit and KC. No way in hell we win Game Three cause Floyd will go five innings max and we never win games where we pitch a s***load of relievers. Then Verlander so it's another 1-3 series vs. Detroit. Tonight's game was huge.

 

Just got home from the game. While Robin did have an awful game with the Liriano/Youk decisions, I would like to add that Leyland had just as bad of a game managing, but he was lucky enough to win.

 

1. He had Dirks bunt, which took the bat out of Cabrera's hands, which set up the Fielder/Veal matchup. I called it from the second Dirks squared up.

2. Why take out Fister after only 99 pitches ofpur e domination?

 

Tigers won, so no one cares, but he had some head scratchers too.

 

This post in no way absolves Robin of the Youkilis bunting call. Awful, awful, awful, no matter how you look at it.

Leyland may have had a bad game but doesn't matter when his team has the mojo against Chicago. They beat us almost every single time we play (this year). Fans are getting pissed cause all we play are close games (except the occasional blowout loss) and we've been dropping a ton of close games of late to KC and Detroit and Robin's decisions are showing up as vital.

Edited September 12, 2012 by greg775

[witesoxfan]

Poor crowd.

 

Who cares.

 

Peavy choked in a big game yet again.

 

Had the offense scored 5 runs in the first 6, you would have never, ever, ever, ever said this.

 

itting approach was awful. Everything went 0-2 on us tonight. Bullpen wasn't great either though when you use 100 different pitchers someone is bound to screw up.

 

This is all true and essentially meaningless. Fister is a good pitcher (there you go fathom) who generally locates well and is a guy you have to be aggressive but smart against. You can't be patient because he'll eat you up if you are, but you can't be overly aggressive either. It's always a matter of getting the best pitch you can hit against him and hitting it.

 

No idea why he used Liriano out of the pen. Liriano has never been good out of the bullpen. He's a guy who sets his own tempo from the start of the game and works the opposition from there. You throw him out of the pen and he no longer pitches based upon his own tempo.

 

 

And Robin Ventura...Oh boy. Can't wait to read through the gamethread's thoughts on him.

 

Nailed it. That is the worst managerial decision I have seen in 10+ years of watching baseball. Nevermind my already very large bias against the sacrifice bunt, you don't take the bat out of the hands of a guy who has a good eye at the plate, hits fastballs like crazy (the two pitches he's hit best in his career are fastballs and cut-fastballs) which Benoit featured quite a bit tonight, and, forgetting that he has NEVER had a sacrifice bunt (at least a successful one...I'm guessing he's now 0 for 1), the dude is ALWAYS GETTING ON BASE in those situations - even this year. Seriously. RISP? Piss poor .227 average, but a .371 OBP. Men on in general? .271/.379. Late and close? .259/f***ing.423. Within 2 runs? .253/.370. High leverage? May as well include the full splits because it's a glorious .300/.392/.700/1.092 (74 PAs). Hell, I'll even include his .380 OBP in the 8th inning for kicks and giggles.

 

The worst part is that the bunt there accomplishes NOTHING. As much as I like Wise as a player, he is not a guy who is going to instill fear into Benoit, and he obviously didn't since Benoit was not looking to get him to GIDP but instead to get him out so he could go and get Konerko next, and 1 run doesn't do a jack bit of f***ing horses*** for the Sox there. You f***ing let Kevin Youkilis swing away there and if he grounds into a double play, then f***ing guess what, s*** happens. Nevermind the fact that, because he's a good hitter, Kevin Youkilis is twice as likely to hit a go ahead home run in that spot than he is to GIDP (and far likelier than even that to draw a walk, get a hit, or simply make a f***ing out that isn't absolutely given away like Ventura did).

 

Just the stupidest baseball decision I have ever seen in my entire life. I'd rather see Ken Williams sign Darin Erstad 10 times to 1 year contracts for the next 10 years than I would see Ventura do that again.

[greg775]

Who cares.

 

 

 

Had the offense scored 5 runs in the first 6, you would have never, ever, ever, ever said this.

 

 

 

This is all true and essentially meaningless. Fister is a good pitcher (there you go fathom) who generally locates well and is a guy you have to be aggressive but smart against. You can't be patient because he'll eat you up if you are, but you can't be overly aggressive either. It's always a matter of getting the best pitch you can hit against him and hitting it.

 

No idea why he used Liriano out of the pen. Liriano has never been good out of the bullpen. He's a guy who sets his own tempo from the start of the game and works the opposition from there. You throw him out of the pen and he no longer pitches based upon his own tempo.

 

-- The Sox aren't doing Robin any favors. All these close games, game after game, and with us losing there are tons of managerial decisions you can always point to. Two nights ago was so refreshing with a starter finally going very deep in a game. We didn't have to see the parade of relievers.

 

 

 

 

Nailed it. That is the worst managerial decision I have seen in 10+ years of watching baseball. Nevermind my already very large bias against the sacrifice bunt, you don't take the bat out of the hands of a guy who has a good eye at the plate, hits fastballs like crazy (the two pitches he's hit best in his career are fastballs and cut-fastballs) which Benoit featured quite a bit tonight, and, forgetting that he has NEVER had a sacrifice bunt (at least a successful one...I'm guessing he's now 0 for 1), the dude is ALWAYS GETTING ON BASE in those situations - even this year. Seriously. RISP? Piss poor .227 average, but a .371 OBP. Men on in general? .271/.379. Late and close? .259/f***ing.423. Within 2 runs? .253/.370. High leverage? May as well include the full splits because it's a glorious .300/.392/.700/1.092 (74 PAs). Hell, I'll even include his .380 OBP in the 8th inning for kicks and giggles.

 

The worst part is that the bunt there accomplishes NOTHING. As much as I like Wise as a player, he is not a guy who is going to instill fear into Benoit, and he obviously didn't since Benoit was not looking to get him to GIDP but instead to get him out so he could go and get Konerko next, and 1 run doesn't do a jack bit of f***ing horses*** for the Sox there. You f***ing let Kevin Youkilis swing away there and if he grounds into a double play, then f***ing guess what, s*** happens. Nevermind the fact that, because he's a good hitter, Kevin Youkilis is twice as likely to hit a go ahead home run in that spot than he is to GIDP (and far likelier than even that to draw a walk, get a hit, or simply make a f***ing out that isn't absolutely given away like Ventura did).

 

Just the stupidest baseball decision I have ever seen in my entire life. I'd rather see Ken Williams sign Darin Erstad 10 times to 1 year contracts for the next 10 years than I would see Ventura do that again.

 

I can see why he bunted, sort of, but I hate seeing players bunt who cannot bunt or do not bunt. I think everybody watching on TV or in the stadium knew we weren't going to score after Youk's pathetic at bat. Even if he gets it down, we have Wise up, and Wise still would have whiffed. That's two outs for Paulie and they either pitch to him or walk him. They probably pitch to him and who knows if Paulie woulda got a single or not?

How many times in the past couple seasons have we seen the Sox fail in bunting situations? We can't bunt!!!! Youk might have hit into a DP, but I think everybody, including KW would have liked to see if his BIG acquisition of the season had a big hit in him tonight. Instead, feeble bunt attempts and the whiff.

Edited September 12, 2012 by greg775

[JoshPR]

Hitting approach was bad that I'll give

[scenario]

Not choking = ________________ is my interpretation of Soxtalk

 

Fill in the blank.

Edited September 12, 2012 by scenario

[nitetrain8601]

Sox have lost 5 straight starts by Peavy against the Tigers. He didn't pitch terrible against them tonight, but just once, you'd like to see him just dominate in a big game and not pitch just poorly enough to lose.

 

What the hell? I won't say he dominated, but he leaned more towards that than he did choking. Choking is giving up 5 runs in less than 6 innings to play. He had a good game. Not great or awesome, but a good game. Choking? Did Sox fans forget what choking was? I'll give you examples, it was Esteban Loaiza complaining he didn't get enough run support when he was actually getting top 5 run support. It was Shingo Takatsu wetting the bed all the way back overseas, it was Javier Vazquez losing before the game even started.

[scenario]

The White Sox are 11-46 when scoring three runs or fewer.

 

[cabiness42]

The White Sox are 11-46 when scoring three runs or fewer.

 

I can't imagine too many teams are much better than that.

[tonyho7476]

I am so against f***ing bunting. I could not believe Robin was doing that last night after Benoit-balls had given up three straight hits. Way to kill the f***ing rally, after Robin was dumb enough to bring in Liriano in a close game. Dogs***. Can't wait to see how f***ed up tonight's game gets. Floyd vs. Scherzer? We're f***ed.

[cabiness42]

In a game where the offense had two f***ing hits through seven innings, please don't tell me the loss is the fault of the manager or the pitchers. If you take out the 18-9 loss to Minnesota, the offense is averaging 3.67 runs per game in September.

[caulfield12]

In a game where the offense had two f***ing hits through seven innings, please don't tell me the loss is the fault of the manager or the pitchers. If you take out the 18-9 loss to Minnesota, the offense is averaging 3.67 runs per game in September.

 

 

And yet all of the last 3 games we've lost, there have been about 5-7 clearly discernible mistakes (mentally/physically) or in the managerial decision-making process, especially in the last 3 innings.

Edited September 12, 2012 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

And yet all of the last 3 games we've lost, there have been about 5-7 clearly discernible mistakes (mentally/physically) or in the managerial decision-making process, especially in the last 3 innings.

 

You know what though, we act like other managers dont ever make mistakes. I am not absolving RV from screwing up last night, but come on, we were all laughing at Leyland 2 nights ago for bunting and taking the bat out of Cabreras hands. Managers f*** up

[NorthSideSox72]

Apparently I am the only Sox fan who was OK with Youk bunting there last night. I thought it was a good move. Youk has looked pretty terrible in the past few weeks with the bat, and if it is executed properly it takes DET by surprise, you lose the force, and you may even get a hit out of it with Cabrera at 3B. It didn't work.

 

But I really don't get putting in Liriano there. If he's in he bullpen, he needs to be in for long relief in a game not very close, at least at first. That was a bizarre situation for him to be in, I really don't understand it.

 

[IlliniKrush]

Apparently I am the only Sox fan who was OK with Youk bunting there last night. I thought it was a good move. Youk has looked pretty terrible in the past few weeks with the bat, and if it is executed properly it takes DET by surprise, you lose the force, and you may even get a hit out of it with Cabrera at 3B. It didn't work.

 

But I really don't get putting in Liriano there. If he's in he bullpen, he needs to be in for long relief in a game not very close, at least at first. That was a bizarre situation for him to be in, I really don't understand it.

I'm pretty sure Youkilis doesn't know how to bunt. That by itself makes it a bad move.

 

Surprise? He's squaring around for a sacrifice. That's not a surprise, Cabrera's standing halfway to the plate.

[Balta1701]

I'm pretty sure Youkilis doesn't know how to bunt. That by itself makes it a bad move.

 

Surprise? He's squaring around for a sacrifice. That's not a surprise, Cabrera's standing halfway to the plate.

Youk was more likely to get hte guys to 3rd by taking a walk than by successfully getting the bunt down. If you want someone to bunt there, pinch hit someone who can bunt.

[Jake]

Apparently I am the only Sox fan who was OK with Youk bunting there last night. I thought it was a good move. Youk has looked pretty terrible in the past few weeks with the bat, and if it is executed properly it takes DET by surprise, you lose the force, and you may even get a hit out of it with Cabrera at 3B. It didn't work.

 

But I really don't get putting in Liriano there. If he's in he bullpen, he needs to be in for long relief in a game not very close, at least at first. That was a bizarre situation for him to be in, I really don't understand it.

 

I'm with you. Youk should have bunted. Soxtalk seems to know whether he is able to bunt, yet we don't have a clue since we never saw him bunt at a strike. I have to assume the person or persons that had Youk bunt knew whether or not he is able to do it. Youk never bunted at a strike so it is pretty difficult to know whether he is a competent bunter. We can tell that he was not competent when it comes to pitch selection, which makes me dubious that he was suddenly going to snap out of a slump in that AB.

[fathom]

I'm with you. Youk should have bunted. Soxtalk seems to know whether he is able to bunt, yet we don't have a clue since we never saw him bunt at a strike. I have to assume the person or persons that had Youk bunt knew whether or not he is able to do it. Youk never bunted at a strike so it is pretty difficult to know whether he is a competent bunter. We can tell that he was not competent when it comes to pitch selection, which makes me dubious that he was suddenly going to snap out of a slump in that AB.

 

Orlando Hudson: 33 sac bunts in his career

Kevin Youkilis: 0

[Chisoxfn]

ERA 4.00 against division rival = choking. This would apply to Chris Sale as well. The Peavy Kool-Aid should be empty by now. He would have made a better Cub.

Also momentum doesn't exist in Sox vocabulary.

Wow, you guys really think this game of baseball is easy and it truly is pathetic. The Tigers have a great offense and Peavy did a solid job. It was a quality start.

[Chisoxfn]

Youk is 2-32 vs the Tigers in a White Sox jersey. Fastballs in, offspeed pitches low and away every single AB.

Since his hot start, he hasn't exactly been dominant. You can clearly see he's aged and isn't exactly a great option starting at 3B next year. Hopefully the Sox can make a move and come up with something better a year from now. That was why I had zero problem bunting with him. I'd just have rather used Odog or someone else to do it.

 

However, I'm not the manager and for all I know, Youk is an outstanding bunter in practice (and to be frank, practice and the game shouldn't be any different when it comes to bunting). Just cause he hasn't done it in a game, doesn't mean he hasn't done it thousands of times in practice.

[Balta1701]

Orlando Hudson: 33 sac bunts in his career

Kevin Youkilis: 0

So we asked an 8 year veteran with 0 successful sacrifice bunts to bunt, and we expected a positive result?

[fathom]

However, I'm not the manager and for all I know, Youk is an outstanding bunter in practice (and to be frank, practice and the game shouldn't be any different when it comes to bunting). Just cause he hasn't done it in a game, doesn't mean he hasn't done it thousands of times in practice.

 

I doubt they're trying to bunt a splitter in practice and then a 95 mph inside fastball. Lost in the debate about the bunt was him swinging at a terrible 0-2 pitch. You would figure that if he was a good bunter, he would have had at least one sac bunt in Boston by fluke.

[Chisoxfn]

I doubt they're trying to bunt a splitter in practice and then a 95 mph inside fastball. Lost in the debate about the bunt was him swinging at a terrible 0-2 pitch. You would figure that if he was a good bunter, he would have had at least one sac bunt in Boston by fluke.

Hell, I don't know. I'm not the manager. I would have used O-Dog. But there could be more to it then we know.

[Balta1701]

I doubt they're trying to bunt a splitter in practice and then a 95 mph inside fastball. Lost in the debate about the bunt was him swinging at a terrible 0-2 pitch. You would figure that if he was a good bunter, he would have had at least one sac bunt in Boston by fluke.

When you put a guy in an 0-2 hole by asking him to do something he's clearly not comfortable doing...you cannot be surprised when he looks bad on the third pitch. That's not an uncommon one there at all.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Wow, you guys really think this game of baseball is easy and it truly is pathetic. The Tigers have a great offense and Peavy did a solid job. It was a quality start.

It wasnt, at least not by definition.

[Balta1701]

Hell, I don't know. I'm not the manager. I would have used O-Dog. But there could be more to it then we know.

What we do know is it didn't work and really looked terrible in the process. He did the usual "chop the bat downwards" that people who aren't good/experienced at bunting do.