JPINAA

[Dick Allen]

Then why is everyone disagreeing with my thread title for?

 

I disagree that salary is irrelevant. It has hamstrung the Sox from signing other players, so the closer he produces to his value, the better.

 

He has had an outstanding season and has been a big part of the Sox success. Except for when he has faced Detroit, which is frustrating as hell. And for someone who hypes up his own attitude & desire, how about you beat your teams biggest rival when it matters? Don't just keep the Sox offense in the game, how about you once win the game despite the offense?

If the entire argument is playing or pitching well against the Tigers, there are a lot more White Sox other than Peavy you can vent your frustrations.

[kitekrazy]

No one has said he's an ace. His salary is irrelevant. He had major surgery. Most on this board, even the people complaining about him would have to admit he's exceeded their expectations.

 

Who had those low expectations?

 

[caulfield12]

Then we're back to the salary issue and the Cy Young/2007 expectations argument.

 

When things go bad, fans tend to turn on the highest paid players, especially if they seem to be loafing, dogging it or too "non-chalant." See Rios, 2011.

 

Peavy tends to draw resentment partially because of his "bulldog" mentality and comeback from injury....which causes resentment again, because some will defend him no matter what he does in big games, essentially.

Edited September 14, 2012 by caulfield12

[kitekrazy]

He draws resentment for not beating the Tigers in a winnable game. He folds in big games. His bulldog mentality is bulls*** and it sure doesn't transfer to his teammates.

Edited September 14, 2012 by kitekrazy

[Jake]

I've never seen Peavy fold. He may give up runs, but he doesn't fold. The only game that seemed fold-like was the Ohman game early this year against the Tigers and he was left in too long.

[greg775]

I've never seen Peavy fold. He may give up runs, but he doesn't fold. The only game that seemed fold-like was the Ohman game early this year against the Tigers and he was left in too long.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing him with the Sox again next season, but you'd think the Bosox or somebody else will overpay by a bunch. Peavy like Paulie was great the first half. He's been human the second half and not near as effective. I still would like him in the rotation. Obviously losing him will mean losing a ton of innings, but you would think the Sox can't afford him.

Edited September 14, 2012 by greg775

[kitekrazy]

Then we're back to the salary issue and the Cy Young/2007 expectations argument.

 

When things go bad, fans tend to turn on the highest paid players, especially if they seem to be loafing, dogging it or too "non-chalant." See Rios, 2011.

 

Peavy tends to draw resentment partially because of his "bulldog" mentality and comeback from injury....which causes resentment again, because some will defend him no matter what he does in big games, essentially.

 

A couple of media guys made a great point. This is the time of year you have to rely on your money guys. Jake is one of them. In a big game at least produce a quality start-not fart like Tues. It's not just him but guys like PK. Enough excuses.

 

[kitekrazy]

I wouldn't mind seeing him with the Sox again next season, but you'd think the Bosox or somebody else will overpay by a bunch. Peavy like Paulie was great the first half. He's been human the second half and not near as effective. I still would like him in the rotation. Obviously losing him will mean losing a ton of innings, but you would think the Sox can't afford him.

 

Too high of a risk. He might get hurt again. $$$ per appearance has been a lousy value. I don't know if this is more of a NL thing, but they really back load the contracts of pitchers. It reminds of NFL contracts except those often get renegotiated or they cut the player. Look at Lincecums numbers this year for $14M. Just wait to see Mark Bs numbers in the final year of his contract. Waste of money.

 

If they could sign Liriano dirt cheap, I would like to see if Coop can fix him in Feb.

 

I would keep Youk at the expense of Peavy. The Sox always seem to come up with pitching. If they don't keep Youl, they only option they have at 3rd is Robin becoming player/manager.

 

[greg775]

Too high of a risk. He might get hurt again. $$$ per appearance has been a lousy value. I don't know if this is more of a NL thing, but they really back load the contracts of pitchers. It reminds of NFL contracts except those often get renegotiated or they cut the player. Look at Lincecums numbers this year for $14M. Just wait to see Mark Bs numbers in the final year of his contract. Waste of money.

 

If they could sign Liriano dirt cheap, I would like to see if Coop can fix him in Feb.

 

I would keep Youk at the expense of Peavy. The Sox always seem to come up with pitching. If they don't keep Youl, they only option they have at 3rd is Robin becoming player/manager.

 

Good points again about the NL contracts especially. I think I'd cut bait with Liriano. He's so inconsistent it has to be mental. I wonder if he wants to be fixed. Seems like the kind of guy who just goes out there and whatever will be will be, oftentimes it's bad. I am assuming a lot, thought, but I'm not impressed. Does he have closer stuff for an inning or could he be a setup guy and we could let Thornton go?

[kitekrazy]

Good points again about the NL contracts especially. I think I'd cut bait with Liriano. He's so inconsistent it has to be mental. I wonder if he wants to be fixed. Seems like the kind of guy who just goes out there and whatever will be will be, oftentimes it's bad. I am assuming a lot, thought, but I'm not impressed. Does he have closer stuff for an inning or could he be a setup guy and we could let Thornton go?

 

Sounds like the perfect White Sox. A lot depends on what you can sign him for.

 

He would be a lousy closer. He needs at least an inning to get his act together. The was another Ventura brain fart putting him in.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Right along with the idea at one point of making Contreras a closer.

 

He takes 2-3 innings to find a rhythm and command in the strike zone. THEN he would become unhittable. But the game would already have been blown up.

[LittleHurt05]

If the entire argument is playing or pitching well against the Tigers, there are a lot more White Sox other than Peavy you can vent your frustrations.

 

I never said that the other White Sox played well. They deserve blame too. I just don't see why Peavy gets a break just because he struck out 9 Tigers. He couldn't even finish the 6th inning and he blew a two-run lead. I'm sorry if my expectations are higher for him than everyone else. God forbid he pitches a gem, and we don't have to depend on a shaky bullpen. Isn't that what top starters do?

[Dick Allen]

I never said that the other White Sox played well. They deserve blame too. I just don't see why Peavy gets a break just because he struck out 9 Tigers. He couldn't even finish the 6th inning and he blew a two-run lead. I'm sorry if my expectations are higher for him than everyone else. God forbid he pitches a gem, and we don't have to depend on a shaky bullpen. Isn't that what top starters do?

Peavy gets a break? He never gets a break from Sox fans. He goes through a surgery no other pitcher has ever gone through and Sox fans are pissed at him for giving them 200 innings of 3.30 ERA pitching. How come you don't have a CSINAA considering his 0-3 record and 6.00 ERA against Detroit? Coming into this season, if you thought Peavy should pitch like an ace after what he's been through, you didn't have a lot of company. Its pretty clear his stuff isn't quite what it was in SD, but he's still done well. The entire Sox roster for the most part has stunk up the joint vs. Detroit. Don't just pick on one guy.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

He goes through a surgery no other pitcher has ever gone through and Sox fans are pissed at him for giving them 200 innings of 3.30 ERA pitching. How come you don't have a CSINAA considering his 0-3 record and 6.00 ERA against Detroit? Coming into this season, if you thought Peavy should pitch like an ace after what he's been through, you didn't have a lot of company. Its pretty clear his stuff isn't quite what it was in SD, but he's still done well. The entire Sox roster for the most part has stunk up the joint vs. Detroit. Don't just pick on one guy.

 

Are you kidding me? This thread is full of people slobbering over Peavy's performance because he struck out 9 guys. And Chris Sale makes about $16.5 million less than Peavy and is in his first year as a starter, so that's not exactly comparable.

 

Once again, yes, the whole team has played bad. The reason I specifically mentioned Peavy is because I am sick of hearing about his "bulldog" mentality and how you want him on the mound in big games because he gives 120%. That hasn't translated into results when the Sox have needed a big performance. Yet everyone loves him on this board because he f***ing tries hard.

 

 

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

He draws resentment for not beating the Tigers in a winnable game. He folds in big games. His bulldog mentality is bulls*** and it sure doesn't transfer to his teammates.

 

At least somebody gets it around here.

[CyAcosta41]

Count me as one who considers CURRENT VERSION Peavy to be part of the problem for why we're having such difficulty closing this thing out. He isn't THE problem; he has lots of company; but, in my view, he is indeed part of the problem.

 

Admire Peavy a lot as a pitcher. I don't think his bulldog attitude is a sham. That's who he is and it has a lot to do with his success over the years. I do think he's always been somewhat overrated -- and certainly benefited from being in the NL and playing at PETCO -- but even present version Peavy, post-major surgery, is a good to very good (and sometimes even dominant) big league starter.

 

That said, my disappointment is that sometimes you need a pitcher to be GREAT. And be GREAT when you need him to be great. And whether it's inability to dial it up to great (this year), or plain bad-timing, Peavy has not been able to produce that GREAT start in a start where you truly need him to. Not once in 2012. Sale has -- many times. Quintana has -- multiple times. Even Axelrod and Santiago have. The entire starting staff did over and over again in 2005. Even the much-maligned John Danks did in the Blackout Game. And certainly Scherzer, Verlander, Fister, and Porcello (in Detroit) could dial up GREAT against us (of course, they had the luxury of going against our hitters). Forget the "ace" label, sometimes you need your guy to simply dominate and shut the opponent down -- no excuses. And I haven't seen one time that 2012 Peavy has been able to do that.

 

If we were forced to a Game 163 versus the Tigers and had the luxury of picking ANY pitcher on our staff to start the game, all equally rested, Peavy would be my fourth option behind Sale, Quintana, and Floyd. It's not because I think Peavy isn't a strong starter to have on your staff during the course of a full season; he's my fourth option because I haven't seen a thing, THIS YEAR, that gives me confidence that he can throw that GREAT GAME for you, against a quality opponent, when you need him to do it.

[southsider2k5]

I think our biggest problem with pitching right now is that we have most the rotation hitting either career, or multi-year highs for innings pitched. Peavy hasn't thrown 200 innings since 2007. He has almost as many innings pitched this year, as he did in 2010 and 2011 combined. I wouldn't be shocked if that were a part of the issue right now.

[justBLAZE]

I thought the 'bulldog' was all about fighting and barking, and Jake seems to be doing both quite a lot

[kitekrazy]

Count me as one who considers CURRENT VERSION Peavy to be part of the problem for why we're having such difficulty closing this thing out. He isn't THE problem; he has lots of company; but, in my view, he is indeed part of the problem.

 

Admire Peavy a lot as a pitcher. I don't think his bulldog attitude is a sham. That's who he is and it has a lot to do with his success over the years. I do think he's always been somewhat overrated -- and certainly benefited from being in the NL and playing at PETCO -- but even present version Peavy, post-major surgery, is a good to very good (and sometimes even dominant) big league starter.

 

That said, my disappointment is that sometimes you need a pitcher to be GREAT. And be GREAT when you need him to be great. And whether it's inability to dial it up to great (this year), or plain bad-timing, Peavy has not been able to produce that GREAT start in a start where you truly need him to. Not once in 2012. Sale has -- many times. Quintana has -- multiple times. Even Axelrod and Santiago have. The entire starting staff did over and over again in 2005. Even the much-maligned John Danks did in the Blackout Game. And certainly Scherzer, Verlander, Fister, and Porcello (in Detroit) could dial up GREAT against us (of course, they had the luxury of going against our hitters). Forget the "ace" label, sometimes you need your guy to simply dominate and shut the opponent down -- no excuses. And I haven't seen one time that 2012 Peavy has been able to do that.

 

If we were forced to a Game 163 versus the Tigers and had the luxury of picking ANY pitcher on our staff to start the game, all equally rested, Peavy would be my fourth option behind Sale, Quintana, and Floyd. It's not because I think Peavy isn't a strong starter to have on your staff during the course of a full season; he's my fourth option because I haven't seen a thing, THIS YEAR, that gives me confidence that he can throw that GREAT GAME for you, against a quality opponent, when you need him to do it.

 

I'm not understanding these comments. Going back to the small sample size in the NL and what we have seen vs. the Tigers in winnable games-he fails in important games. Floyd would be the best pick because of his history. Sale and Q are young and since this is the most they've ever pitched, you don't know what you'll get.

 

[caulfield12]

BUMP...

 

3 hours ago, Mauer wasn't even sure he would be able to play due to his back spasms.

 

Hmmm.

[sunofgold]

Jake Peavy loves twinkies. yumyum.

Last 4 wins have come against the creamy twinkies

 

 

Best thing JP has done is eat innings. Already almost at 200 IP.

That is impressive.

 

[witesoxfan]

I thought about if I should reply, because it's a contentious subject and people will call you an idiot or worse no matter you say, but I'll give it a try. It may be long, so skip this anyone not in the mood.

 

First of all I've loved to study various statistics since my maternal grandmother bought be an Almanac when I was 6 1/2. In my teens a local (Chicago) sociologist Pierre DeVise was in the papers regularly with his continuing demographic research on Chicago and suburban communities. I found his work so fascinating that in the summer of 1966 I visited every Chicago neighborhood but one and started my own little demographic study. By the time the 1970 census came around my estimates and projections turned out to be very accurate. I'm not a scientist, engineer or actuary but do have some experience with detailed statistical research at the graduate level.

 

I've tried to keep up with the new statistical approaches since I first became aware of Bill James a couple of decades ago. When he came out with his Total Baseball I noticed that some players thought to be stars like HOFer Jim Bottomley turned up in the negative. The Total Baseball approach left me totally unsettled and Bill James himself seemed to contradict Total Baseball when he published his all time rankings which showed he valued players like Bottomley more than his Total Baseball rankings ever did. I came away thinking that James was a very knowledgeable baseball historian even if I disagreed with some of his methods. By the way the last time I looked retrosheet.org still used a formula similar to the old Total Baseball method.

 

I continued to follow the whole Sabermetrics thing. CHONES, PECOTA, VORP, Win Shares you name it. Slowly I came to believe that this was an attempt to reinvent the wheel. Many times I've read true believers talent evaluations that to me didn't jibe with real baseball reality. Then there is one thing after another. BA doesn't count it's OBP. Long live Billy Bean and Scott Hatteberg. Strikeouts are king and any pitcher without a high K ratio stinks. His UZR is low, he must be suspect fielder. One stat I did manage to hang my hat one was WAR. Then I noticed little things like before last year Adam Dunn's WAR was higher than Konerko's. In May baseball-reference totally blew up its methods of calculating WAR and many players slid up and down the all time rankings. It reminded me of Winston Smith and his department constantly rewriting history in the novel 1984.

 

As for Peavy I noticed his 2012 WAR was above all the starters in the MLB leading Nationals and once again I thought to myself really? Peavy is better than every one of them this year? So I've probably bored anyone who read this. I could have gone into much greater detail but as for now, count me out. I'll rate players my own way, no matter what Fan Graphs or BP has to say about it.

 

Interesting, and I understand your talking points. It's certainly a point of debate, and though I may have come off as slightly aggressive in my initial "Explain," I certainly didn't mean it and was genuinely interested in seeing why.

 

There will always be a debate between traditional and alternative ("sabermetric") statistics, but ultimately the two have general agreement more often than not, it's just to what degree they agree with each other, and for some reason that has been extremely contentious. You are right, it's a bit silly that Peavy is among the league's best starters, but you also have to consider that he's been extremely effective, effecient, and durable in one of the best hitter's parks in the league. The Washington trio has done that in a weaker league, in a weaker division, in a much better pitching ballpark, and, more durable than those 3, especially Strasburg. It's no surprise to me that he's counted as well as he has. Now, compared to Felix and Verlander...there's a lot of trickiness there...and compared to Sale, there's no question who has been better.

 

Still, I don't think we as Sox fans are quite aware of how well Peavy has pitched this year, which is to say he's pitched very well.

 

Included in that discussion is comparing Alexei Ramirez to Adam Dunn. It's impossible to compare the players, but possible to compare their relative value due to the quanitifcation of some forms of statistics. Whether you agree with those is totally up to you.

 

It's an interesting debate, and if I weren't at work, I'd go more in depth.

[LittleHurt05]

Sox need a win tomorrow. Prove me wrong Jake, prove me wrong.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Jake's next start is his biggest in a Sox uniform. Ace or not, he needs to be one tomorrow night.

[SI1020]

Jake's next start is his biggest in a Sox uniform. Ace or not, he needs to be one tomorrow night.

Guess what? He still isn't. I'm having Javier Vazquez flashbacks.