fathom Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:13 AM) What was the bad decision he made? Viciedo had a 1.293 OPS against Chen coming into the lineup in 19 at bats. If he gets 2 hits tonight, the Sox are still playing. Other than filling out the lineup cards or ordering bunts (mostly dumb) or hit and runs, managers have very little impact on the game. I guess you can put Olmedo at SS instead of Ramirez if you wanted to go with someone who is poorer defensively AND has a worse career OPS against Chen than Ramirez. If there was any guy in the lineup that should not have played tonight it was De Aza...and he banged out 4 hits. Otherwise, the lineup in the game was about as optimal as you get against Chen. The lineup failed, not Robin. Agreed, if anything, Viciedo could have been batting higher in the order. No fault with the lineup at all tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:08 AM) Why don't you just admit that you take an immense pleasure in the Royals beating us and call it a year? Because I'd rather punch my hand through the wall than say that. The Royals are motherf***ers who own the White Sox. Pisses me off beyond belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 If you guys would have seen the Royals broadcast you would have heard all the numbers given regarding the decisions Robin was making. Almost each and every move he made was entirely wrong from a statistical point of view. I would have rather had AJ hitting against Chen in the 4th with the bases loaded an 0 outs. I would have rather had Jones facing Gordon in the 7th. I would have rather not pinch hit ODawg and AJ when lefties hit .80 points lower off of Holland than righties. I would have rather not had Dayan swinging as hard as he can when we need someone with some kind of baseball acumen at the plate at this stage in the season. Trust me, the players didn't get hits when we needed them, and that isn't all on Robin. But he needs to put the Club in the best position to succeed and he clearly doesn't use statistics when attempting to do so. We're 147 games into the season and he still doesn't realize Nate Jones is much tougher on lefties than righties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 10:12 PM) I just want him to look at statistics. He brings in Jones against Butler when he should have brought him in against Gordon. He brings in two lefties to pinch hit against their closer when righties are hitting 80 points higher than lefties. He sits AJ against a guy he's hitting .417 against. I didn't have a problem with him leaving Sale either, Dayan should have made the catch...but I honestly wouldn't take Wise out of the lineup now for Dayan...the guy just has no concept of situational hitting and we can't afford OTJ for him right now. I'd be happy if he were just in a PH role right now, considering the upgrade to our defense that Wise brings. Tank was 5 for 12 with 2 homers vs. Chen going into today. He had a 1.029 OPS vs. LHP. Today was the perfect day to start Viciedo. He didn't perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I really hope Ventura considers moving Youk down in the order until he starts hitting again. Have him bat 7th after AJ, move Rios to 3rd and have Wise bat 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:17 AM) Tank was 5 for 12 with 2 homers vs. Chen going into today. He had a 1.029 OPS vs. LHP. Today was the perfect day to start Viciedo. He didn't perform. Yep, if you're not going to play him against Chen, then you made a huge mistake in not trading him months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:17 PM) Tank was 5 for 12 with 2 homers vs. Chen going into today. He had a 1.029 OPS vs. LHP. Today was the perfect day to start Viciedo. He didn't perform. I really don't care what Dayan has done against Chen in the past, or anyone for that matter. I flat-out would not play him. We have absolutely no idea what we're going to get out of him, because he shows no capacity to learn or improve, no capacity to adjust his approach at the plate. I'll take Wise over Dayan in every start for the remainder of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:18 PM) Yep, if you're not going to play him against Chen, then you made a huge mistake in not trading him months ago. Well you know where I stand on that issue. What is your excuse for not playing AJ when he hits .417 against Chen if it was absolutely imperative to play Dayan tonight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:21 AM) Well you know where I stand on that issue. What is your excuse for not playing AJ when he hits .417 against Chen if it was absolutely imperative to play Dayan tonight? AJ probably needs a day off now and then. If we don't make the playoffs, the sole reason is head-to-head matchups vs. KC and Detroit. That's it right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 10:20 PM) I really don't care what Dayan has done against Chen in the past, or anyone for that matter. I flat-out would not play him. We have absolutely no idea what we're going to get out of him, because he shows no capacity to learn or improve, no capacity to adjust his approach at the plate. I'll take Wise over Dayan in every start for the remainder of the season. No, we do know one thing. He destroys LHP. He did it on Sunday against Diamond, he did it last time vs. Chen. You start him against lefties, his four digit OPS attests to that. Wise has a career OPS against LHP of .558. In 2012 it is a whopping .600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Viciedo absolutely choked on that flyball, short-armed it knowing he was about to hit the fence. The guy has been surprisingly good in LF this year, but not tonight. He also blew chunks at the plate with the bases loaded, swinging at a pitch that wasn't even close to being a strike. How many times do you think Manto has told him to lay off the inside pitch that the book says is his gaping hole? Blame RV all you want, but only if it's for putting Dayan in the lineup tonight. And that's a weak argument at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:24 PM) No, we do know one thing. He destroys LHP. He did it on Sunday against Diamond, he did it last time vs. Chen. You start him against lefties, his four digit OPS attests to that. Wise has a career OPS against LHP of .558. In 2012 it is a whopping .600. Fair enough, I'll back off of the Dayan sitting...but the dude needs to be pulled aside and instructed that in 1-0 games with the bases loaded against pitchers we do not score runs against, he needs to try and put the ball in play instead of swinging as hard as he possibly can. I honestly cannot take 5 more years of this lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:27 AM) Viciedo absolutely choked on that flyball, short-armed it knowing he was about to hit the fence. The guy has been surprisingly good in LF this year, but not tonight. He also blew chunks at the plate with the bases loaded, swinging at a pitch that wasn't even close to being a strike. How many times do you think Manto has told him to lay off the inside pitch that the book says is his gaping hole? Blame RV all you want, but only if it's for putting Dayan in the lineup tonight. And that's a weak argument at best. What are you talking about? Dayan is our everyday leftfielder this year and they were throwing a lefty for goshsakes. We're sinking or swimming with Dayan. Did you see that bomb he hit the other day? That's why he's playing? Potential to do that more than 20 times a season. He drives me crazy as well, but he's our everyday outfielder this year no doubt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:27 PM) Viciedo absolutely choked on that flyball, short-armed it knowing he was about to hit the fence. The guy has been surprisingly good in LF this year, but not tonight. He also blew chunks at the plate with the bases loaded, swinging at a pitch that wasn't even close to being a strike. How many times do you think Manto has told him to lay off the inside pitch that the book says is his gaping hole? Blame RV all you want, but only if it's for putting Dayan in the lineup tonight. And that's a weak argument at best. Well I did list about 7 other reasons, but you guys only seem to read one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:32 PM) Wait, so the board is collectively pinning a 3-0 shutout loss against Bruce Chen on Robin? Really? No, they are defending him. I am the one saying he has been a piss-poor manager for the last three weeks. Really. Edited September 20, 2012 by iamshack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ginger Kid Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 08:30 PM) What are you talking about? Dayan is our everyday leftfielder this year and they were throwing a lefty for goshsakes. We're sinking or swimming with Dayan. Did you see that bomb he hit the other day? That's why he's playing? Potential to do that more than 20 times a season. He drives me crazy as well, but he's our everyday outfielder this year no doubt about it. Do you read posts before you reply to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 10:30 PM) Well I did list about 7 other reasons, but you guys only seem to read one. In all honesty, I'm not thinking about Robin's late bullpen & pinch hitting decisions today. They may have been wrong, but it should not have been a 1-0 game going into the bottom of the 7th. The offense was brutal for 7 innings vs a crappy pitcher who they had seemed to figure out recently. This is one is 100% on the offense IMO. Although AJ had success against Chen, he was gonna need a day off at some point. I would rather have Flowers face Chen than any of the RHP coming up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:32 AM) Wait, so the board is collectively pinning a 3-0 shutout loss against Bruce Chen on Robin? Really? Not me. I blame the players. They were DEAD. QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:34 AM) Do you read posts before you reply to them? Oops I think my post was meant for the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 10:32 PM) No, they are defending him. I am the one saying he has been a piss-poor manager for the last three weeks. Really. And people aren't disagreeing about the last three weeks. They are saying that tonight is not his fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:36 PM) In all honesty, I'm not thinking about Robin's late bullpen & pinch hitting decisions today. They may have been wrong, but it should not have been a 1-0 game going into the bottom of the 7th. The offense was brutal for 7 innings vs a crappy pitcher who they had seemed to figure out recently. This is one is 100% on the offense IMO. Although AJ had success against Chen, he was gonna need a day off at some point. I would rather have Flowers face Chen than any of the RHP coming up. Again, Chen is actually tougher on righties than he is on lefties. I agree we should have score 4+ runs easily tonight, but the fact that we didn't only magnifies the mistakes we did make. I don't know why the guy can't just LOOK AT THE DATA instead of going with the traditional righty-lefty/lefty-righty matchups every damned time. Who knows what might have happened had he actually put the players that had the best chance to succeed in instead of just automatically going with the traditional opposite matchup EVERY SINGLE TIME. Maybe Flowers and Beckham get hits off of Holland instead of the two easy outs that two cold guys off the bench were against a guy throwing 99. Is that too much to ask, honestly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 20, 2012 -> 04:41 AM) Again, Chen is actually tougher on righties than he is on lefties. I agree we should have score 4+ runs easily tonight, but the fact that we didn't only magnifies the mistakes we did make. I don't know why the guy can't just LOOK AT THE DATA instead of going with the traditional righty-lefty/lefty-righty matchups every damned time. Who knows what might have happened had he actually put the players that had the best chance to succeed in instead of just automatically going with the traditional opposite matchup EVERY SINGLE TIME. Maybe Flowers and Beckham get hits off of Holland instead of the two easy outs that two cold guys off the bench were against a guy throwing 99. Is that too much to ask, honestly? I respect your arguments, but you do agree AJP needs some time off, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The manager is not the problem. In fact, I don't really think there are very big problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (Tony82087 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:39 PM) But then again, playing armchair manager instead of putting some blame on the players is an incredibly easy way out. If you read PHT you know damn well that over the course of the past 6 years I have almost continuously posted that the players need to perform. I have never been one to second guess the manager until very recently. Fathom can attest for all the PMs I have responded to him sticking up for what Ventura brings to the table. But the last few weeks have just been grossly inadequate from a managerial standpoint, and I am going to point that out, even when it might not have directly lead to the loss. The guy needs to pick up a f***ing binder and analyze data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:42 PM) I respect your arguments, but you do agree AJP needs some time off, right? Yes. I am sure there is a matchup coming up where he hits less that .417 against a pitcher we don't call CY because the entire team fails to hit him. I would have sat him in whichever game that might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 19, 2012 -> 09:43 PM) The manager is not the problem. In fact, I don't really think there are very big problems. This is a Rongey argument, and it is a slippery slope. At this point in the season, I want EVERY POSSIBLE advantage. We need every possible advantage. If we lose this division by a game, do you want to look back and say we didn't take every possible advantage that was available to us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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