8th Best Team in AL

[cabiness42]

All season long, there's never been a single answer provided for who could or should play LF or SS more competently than Viciedo (and cheaper, with more upside offensively) or Ramirez, were they to actually be traded.

 

If you can make such a "keen" and astute observation that they both need to go, then how can you not at least have any suggestion for what would be a better, more effective line-up, given the salary constraints we're still going to be operating under...knowing payroll will not expand with the disappointing ending to the season and essentially unchanged season ticket base?

 

As I noted in my OBP thread, Ramirez and Viciedo are two of five guys who are collectively dragging the offense down with poor OBP. I stopped short of saying exactly which two need to go because I don't know what trades and FA signings are realistic. I think in a perfect world AJ stays because his offense is so hard to get from the catcher position and Alexei stays because his defense is so damn good. Beckahm is the biggest offensive liability but then he's also the least expensive and plays a position that seems very think league-wide right now.

 

If you can't make reasonable upgrades at two of the five positions, then might as well get what you can for all five and start from scratch.

[The Ultimate Champion]

As I noted in my OBP thread, Ramirez and Viciedo are two of five guys who are collectively dragging the offense down with poor OBP. I stopped short of saying exactly which two need to go because I don't know what trades and FA signings are realistic. I think in a perfect world AJ stays because his offense is so hard to get from the catcher position and Alexei stays because his defense is so damn good. Beckahm is the biggest offensive liability but then he's also the least expensive and plays a position that seems very think league-wide right now.

 

If you can't make reasonable upgrades at two of the five positions, then might as well get what you can for all five and start from scratch.

Selling on Gordon right now would be a major mistake IMO. His value isn't going to be great & he's close to turning the corner according to Manto. And if you can view things from a baseball-wide, all-around perspective, his defense saves us runs his bat doesn't create, and the power makes up for some of those singles that other 2nd basemen get that he doesn't. He could be our new Joe Crede as far as the time required to bloom.

 

It isn't even worth discussing moving Viciedo.

 

Alexei, maybe, if the offer is right.

 

And is this **really** the time to b**** about poor OBP dragging the lineup down? We've had all kinds of men on base and in scoring position lately. What we need are players who aren't going to give ABs away in crunch time.

[The Ultimate Champion]

All season long, there's never been a single answer provided for who could or should play LF or SS more competently than Viciedo (and cheaper, with more upside offensively) or Ramirez, were they to actually be traded.

 

If you can make such a "keen" and astute observation that they both need to go, then how can you not at least have any suggestion for what would be a better, more effective line-up, given the salary constraints we're still going to be operating under...knowing payroll will not expand with the disappointing ending to the season and essentially unchanged season ticket base?

 

Anyone can go to ESPN or baseball-reference or fangraphs and pull up OBP numbers, or OPS, or WAR, righty/lefty splits or whatever. That's the easy part. The hard part is fitting them into a winning, cohesive formula. Cot's baseball contracts is also your friend.

 

The story's no longer that our future looks as bleak as the Astros. It's that we still have a tremendous amount of question marks going forward, but a much better farm system than a year ago, particularly in regards to OF prospects and at least a few decent starting pitching prospects, not to mention a plethora of good relief arms.

I luuuv caulfield.

 

We're in a great spot right now. And I'd like to point to your comment re: stathead, fantasy baseball-style team construction and how useless it is most of the time, because that's something we may need to watch with Hahn. I'm hoping the Santos-for-Molina deal which Kenny didn't seem too clued in on is not a sign of things to come with Hahn, or if it is, that Molina has a better arm than what I've seen (albeit in brief). I love Kenny's tools first, stats second approach and I hope that doesn't change.

[cabiness42]

Selling on Gordon right now would be a major mistake IMO. His value isn't going to be great & he's close to turning the corner according to Manto. And if you can view things from a baseball-wide, all-around perspective, his defense saves us runs his bat doesn't create, and the power makes up for some of those singles that other 2nd basemen get that he doesn't. He could be our new Joe Crede as far as the time required to bloom.

 

It isn't even worth discussing moving Viciedo.

 

Alexei, maybe, if the offer is right.

 

And is this **really** the time to b**** about poor OBP dragging the lineup down? We've had all kinds of men on base and in scoring position lately. What we need are players who aren't going to give ABs away in crunch time.

 

Well, you just can't keep all five of them. It simply isn't going to work. You're going to have to detach your emotions and accept that at least two of them need to go, and yes, one of them might be Viciedo.

 

And yes, this is the time to b**** about poor OBP, because this week was the perfect example. The top of the lineup got on base and the bottom of the order couldn't drive them in because they are constantly givng away ABs by swinging at bad pitches.

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

I don't want to keep Viciedo because of his emotional value. I want to keep Viciedo because I'm against stupid, reactionary moves by the GM of my favorite baseball team.

 

Viciedo has been one of the key guys giving away ABs. That's because he's young.

 

Alexei OTOH? I will actually agree with you there, but not with your line of reasoning. Alexei is getting more expensive and his value has been more due to his defense. A cheap, defense-first SS at the league minimum could be had for one of our pitchers, and if you can get a good pitching prospect for Alexei then you've very likely come out ahead as far as payroll room gained. Lose a pitcher, gain a pitching prospect + payroll space while downgrading a bit offensively while (theoretically) making a short defensive downgrade now but a defensive upgrade 2 years from now and beyond. The key comes down to our scouts & front office personnel identifying the right players.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Burnsauce? More like bansauce

You have to do a lot to get banned here. There was once a poster I new here who would make a post believing he'd get banned, and then after it he wouldn't get banned, and the he'd go "WTF how come I can still post here?!" and then he'd go back to posting. Of course I've never done anything like that myself & all my posts are on point and terrific but the point remains the same: it's hard to get hit with the ban hammer here.

[NorthSideSox72]

Of course I've never done anything like that myself & all my posts are on point and terrific

That we actually ban for.

 

[cabiness42]

I don't want to keep Viciedo because of his emotional value. I want to keep Viciedo because I'm against stupid, reactionary moves by the GM of my favorite baseball team.

 

Viciedo has been one of the key guys giving away ABs. That's because he's young.

 

It wouldn't be a stupid, reactionary move. Yes I get that Viciedo is young, but there's no guarantee that he learns plate discipline and he's not going to be an elite player without it.

 

Like I said earlier, you can make a good, sound, argument for keeping any one of the five, but keeping all five of them or even four is suicide. Some guys have to go.

[The Ultimate Champion]

It wouldn't be a stupid, reactionary move. Yes I get that Viciedo is young, but there's no guarantee that he learns plate discipline and he's not going to be an elite player without it.

 

Like I said earlier, you can make a good, sound, argument for keeping any one of the five, but keeping all five of them or even four is suicide. Some guys have to go.

First I would question what you consider "plate discipline" to be because this actually goes quite a bit beyond the numbers under the "BB" and "OBP" columns on the back of a baseball card. Secondly, as one example, Vladimir Guerrero was an elite hitter who swung at absolutely everything & whose OBP was weighted heavily by his batting average. Vlad never walked because he had this great "plate discipline," he walked because he was dangerous & pitchers pitched him that way. Viciedo in his brief career has an OBP 43 points above his BA (Vlad's career was 61) but as dangerous as Viciedo is, if he just learns to lay off the *terrible* pitches he will find himself in hitters counts much more often leading to both a higher walk total and a higher batting average to raise the OBP.

 

As a LF with a gun for an arm with big power to the opposite field who is under team control for a long time, I have to ask you who do you think we could deal Viciedo for and get similar all-around value dollar for dollar spent? Because the players other teams would trade for him are probably very good players who are already getting paid like very good players and that right there isn't going to help unless you decide to shorten your contention window to 2013-14, and right now, it seems likely we'll be looking at an offseason that would in theory lead to a contention window of 2014+.

 

As for the bolded part, not if you plan on contending.

 

If you want to continue to go young, then yes, some players have to go. That's just how it works.

[nickofypres]

If Viciedo would be a guarantee to raise his slugging % and cut back his K's, I could take the low OBP. He wouldn't draw a lot of walks, but if he's hitting more power in general, then I think its fine.

 

But, there isn't a guarantee that he'll do that.

 

I don't know if I would be cool with shipping him out, to get rid of a such a young, cheap, player with potential upside seems like an odd move. Unless of course we're getting some back in return that is pretty good, and given his contract, age, potential, I think something could be worked out.

Edited September 28, 2012 by whitesox901

[cabiness42]

Secondly, as one example, Vladimir Guerrero was an elite hitter who swung at absolutely everything & whose OBP was weighted heavily by his batting average. Vlad never walked because he had this great "plate discipline," he walked because he was dangerous & pitchers pitched him that way.

 

Vlad is the rare exception. Think about all the free-swinging types. Only one of them ended up being as good as Vlad. Vlad also didn't have four other free swingers surrounding him in the order so pitchers had to throw him strikes.

 

Viciedo will never reach his full potential batting between AJ and Alexei.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Vlad is the rare exception. Think about all the free-swinging types. Only one of them ended up being as good as Vlad. Vlad also didn't have four other free swingers surrounding him in the order so pitchers had to throw him strikes.

 

Viciedo will never reach his full potential batting between AJ and Alexei.

It all runs together.

 

If Dayan lays off some of the terrible pitches he goes after & also relaxes a bit in the box, he'll stay in his ABs longer, which will lead to more walks, more hits, more power. That increase in BA, OBP, SLG will move him up in the order into more of an RBI position, which will make him even more dangerous and harder to pitch to.

 

Right now Dayan is getting himself out more than the opposition is. The scouting report is getting him out, not necessarily great pitches. Viciedo looks like he feels the pressure & that's not going to work for him. With his bat speed and power the other way he shouldn't have to jump out guessing fastball trying to hit it 700 ft. He needs to learn he can take a pitch, not necessarily to draw a walk, but to prevent the opposition from getting ahead of him without having to throw the ball in the zone.

 

I cited Vlad because Vlad is proof you don't need great discipline to be an elite hitter. Vlad would regularly go after the face-high fastball 2-0, start the AB off by swinging at a slider in the dirt in the LH batters box to go 0-1, etc. even when he was going good. Remember how badly the Angels fans wanted him gone after the Sox pitching staff completely worked him over in the 2005 ALCS?

 

All plate disciple is is a combination of composure, smarts, knowledge of the game, strikezone, and situation, an understanding of the way the opposition pitches you, plus the eye. Viciedo has that eye and he shows it with his bat, but he just gets over aggressive. Because of that aggressive nature he's never going to be patient enough to walk a ton, but all the other stuff that he needs to be a more disciplined hitter can come with time and experience if he has the mental capacity for it. As a fan none of us know enough about him to just assume those other things won't come. The OBP, BB, etc. are just results & you can't necessarily condemn a talented young hitter for lack of ideal results because you have to give him time to develop into that kind of player. To me he seems like a good clubhouse type who adjusts well; the OF adjustment defensively and the increase in BB totals plus his continual advancement through the system into the Major Leagues (and producing there) seems to indicate a player with the capacity to continue to learn and make adjustments. In terms of his hitting tools there is no reason to doubt his potential.

 

The bottom line is he's a productive young player who is young and has the potential to be worth a ton. Giving up on him is good why? We need cheap, young, cost-effective, team-controllable talent whether we want to contend or rebuild or do a bit of both. And if you trade Viciedo for a better player *right now* then you are talking about a player who will likely be a lot more expensive, under control for fewer years, and also probably older, probably in his prime or close to it, rather than several years out (at least as an offensive force). The only justifiable deal for Viciedo is if you trade him for another young, cheap, team-controllable player who also has serious potential. But if you are going to try to make that type of deal, and if you are making it simply because the ideal results aren't there right now, then the only deal you're going to find is another extremely talented player who is also producing under his potential, and again, you do that why? You only make that deal if you know something about his character/mental state/attitude, which none of us would know anything about. If I had Starlin Castro I'd trade him. Viciedo hasn't shown himself to be anything like that.

[caulfield12]

It all runs together.

 

If Dayan lays off some of the terrible pitches he goes after & also relaxes a bit in the box, he'll stay in his ABs longer, which will lead to more walks, more hits, more power. That increase in BA, OBP, SLG will move him up in the order into more of an RBI position, which will make him even more dangerous and harder to pitch to.

 

Right now Dayan is getting himself out more than the opposition is. The scouting report is getting him out, not necessarily great pitches. Viciedo looks like he feels the pressure & that's not going to work for him. With his bat speed and power the other way he shouldn't have to jump out guessing fastball trying to hit it 700 ft. He needs to learn he can take a pitch, not necessarily to draw a walk, but to prevent the opposition from getting ahead of him without having to throw the ball in the zone.

 

I cited Vlad because Vlad is proof you don't need great discipline to be an elite hitter. Vlad would regularly go after the face-high fastball 2-0, start the AB off by swinging at a slider in the dirt in the LH batters box to go 0-1, etc. even when he was going good. Remember how badly the Angels fans wanted him gone after the Sox pitching staff completely worked him over in the 2005 ALCS?

 

All plate disciple is is a combination of composure, smarts, knowledge of the game, strikezone, and situation, an understanding of the way the opposition pitches you, plus the eye. Viciedo has that eye and he shows it with his bat, but he just gets over aggressive. Because of that aggressive nature he's never going to be patient enough to walk a ton, but all the other stuff that he needs to be a more disciplined hitter can come with time and experience if he has the mental capacity for it. As a fan none of us know enough about him to just assume those other things won't come. The OBP, BB, etc. are just results & you can't necessarily condemn a talented young hitter for lack of ideal results because you have to give him time to develop into that kind of player. To me he seems like a good clubhouse type who adjusts well; the OF adjustment defensively and the increase in BB totals plus his continual advancement through the system into the Major Leagues (and producing there) seems to indicate a player with the capacity to continue to learn and make adjustments. In terms of his hitting tools there is no reason to doubt his potential.

 

The bottom line is he's a productive young player who is young and has the potential to be worth a ton. Giving up on him is good why? We need cheap, young, cost-effective, team-controllable talent whether we want to contend or rebuild or do a bit of both. And if you trade Viciedo for a better player *right now* then you are talking about a player who will likely be a lot more expensive, under control for fewer years, and also probably older, probably in his prime or close to it, rather than several years out (at least as an offensive force). The only justifiable deal for Viciedo is if you trade him for another young, cheap, team-controllable player who also has serious potential. But if you are going to try to make that type of deal, and if you are making it simply because the ideal results aren't there right now, then the only deal you're going to find is another extremely talented player who is also producing under his potential, and again, you do that why? You only make that deal if you know something about his character/mental state/attitude, which none of us would know anything about. If I had Starlin Castro I'd trade him. Viciedo hasn't shown himself to be anything like that.

 

Good post.

 

If you look at Viciedo's numbers from late April through May in Charlotte in 2011, he's shown the capability to take a lot more walks.

 

Part of it has to do with where he's hitting in the batting order.

 

As long as Williams is nominally in charge, there's no way he trades Dayan at this point in his career. I'm not saying he's going to go David Ortiz-post Twins, but I've always been a big believer in his hitting talent, and his defense (especially considering his arm and how many opposing runners would take advantage of Pods and Pierre) this year has been a net plus for a LFer, compared to a negative.

 

Like the rest of the outfield, he's had a few key defensive miscues in the last 4-6 months, but, overall, he's been just fine defensively.

 

And yeah, you'd be looking at someone like Colby Rasmus, who can play CF and allow DeAza to slide over to LF where he's obviously more comfortable.

 

And Rasmus, as we know, has his share of detractors. In fact, their OPS numbers are pretty similar. The main advantage you get out of that is improving the defense in two places, possibly.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2012 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

It all runs together.

 

If Dayan lays off some of the terrible pitches he goes after & also relaxes a bit in the box, he'll stay in his ABs longer, which will lead to more walks, more hits, more power. That increase in BA, OBP, SLG will move him up in the order into more of an RBI position, which will make him even more dangerous and harder to pitch to.

 

Right now Dayan is getting himself out more than the opposition is. The scouting report is getting him out, not necessarily great pitches. Viciedo looks like he feels the pressure & that's not going to work for him. With his bat speed and power the other way he shouldn't have to jump out guessing fastball trying to hit it 700 ft. He needs to learn he can take a pitch, not necessarily to draw a walk, but to prevent the opposition from getting ahead of him without having to throw the ball in the zone.

 

I cited Vlad because Vlad is proof you don't need great discipline to be an elite hitter. Vlad would regularly go after the face-high fastball 2-0, start the AB off by swinging at a slider in the dirt in the LH batters box to go 0-1, etc. even when he was going good. Remember how badly the Angels fans wanted him gone after the Sox pitching staff completely worked him over in the 2005 ALCS?

 

When Vlad was Viciedo's age he put up a 150+ OPS. If Viciedo played a premium defensive position you could afford to wait on his bat to develop. LF'ers have to produce pretty much from day 1.

[fathom]

I don't even think that Viciedo's plate discipline was awful in terms of chasing pitches way out of the zone. What was baffling was how he seemed to swing and miss so many hanging breaking pitches right down the plate.

[Marty34]

I don't even think that Viciedo's plate discipline was awful in terms of chasing pitches way out of the zone. What was baffling was how he seemed to swing and miss so many hanging breaking pitches right down the plate.

 

His swing path doesn't make use of his so called light tower power. We all know about his contact problem, but he he hits the ball on the ground too much as well.

[kitekrazy]

Good post.

 

If you look at Viciedo's numbers from late April through May in Charlotte in 2011, he's shown the capability to take a lot more walks.

 

Part of it has to do with where he's hitting in the batting order.

 

As long as Williams is nominally in charge, there's no way he trades Dayan at this point in his career. I'm not saying he's going to go David Ortiz-post Twins, but I've always been a big believer in his hitting talent, and his defense (especially considering his arm and how many opposing runners would take advantage of Pods and Pierre) this year has been a net plus for a LFer, compared to a negative.

 

Like the rest of the outfield, he's had a few key defensive miscues in the last 4-6 months, but, overall, he's been just fine defensively.

 

And yeah, you'd be looking at someone like Colby Rasmus, who can play CF and allow DeAza to slide over to LF where he's obviously more comfortable.

 

And Rasmus, as we know, has his share of detractors. In fact, their OPS numbers are pretty similar. The main advantage you get out of that is improving the defense in two places, possibly.

 

He's a victim of over hype by Sox fans who thought he should have been on the team last year. He doesn't have a high trade value except in the minds of Sox fans. He's still a project in the making. It was a smart thing to keep him in the minors another year.

 

I thought he would be a disaster in LF but has has done quite well.

 

I have no complaints at all with Viciedo. He's a rookie and not every player in their 1st year is a Mike Trout.

 

[Marty34]

Its true. You come on here to say Kenny needs to be fired. Someone asks what else he should have done, and you answer with you aren't qualified to answer that. Yet here you are saying what should happen to him for something you, self-admittedly, don't understand. Seriously, this thread sucks.

 

Your post is dead wrong. Why are you twisting what was written in this thread?

[The Ultimate Champion]

Good post.

 

If you look at Viciedo's numbers from late April through May in Charlotte in 2011, he's shown the capability to take a lot more walks.

 

Part of it has to do with where he's hitting in the batting order.

 

As long as Williams is nominally in charge, there's no way he trades Dayan at this point in his career. I'm not saying he's going to go David Ortiz-post Twins, but I've always been a big believer in his hitting talent, and his defense (especially considering his arm and how many opposing runners would take advantage of Pods and Pierre) this year has been a net plus for a LFer, compared to a negative.

 

Like the rest of the outfield, he's had a few key defensive miscues in the last 4-6 months, but, overall, he's been just fine defensively.

 

And yeah, you'd be looking at someone like Colby Rasmus, who can play CF and allow DeAza to slide over to LF where he's obviously more comfortable.

 

And Rasmus, as we know, has his share of detractors. In fact, their OPS numbers are pretty similar. The main advantage you get out of that is improving the defense in two places, possibly.

Rasmus is a perfect example of the type of return you could get for Viciedo. You gain defense, but you take a hit in the clubhouse, and IMO you should always go with the better character type if you can. Clubhouse chemistry is huge, and that's important, but even more important than that is having a player who will listen to his coaches when he's hurting the team and needs to change something.

[The Ultimate Champion]

When Vlad was Viciedo's age he put up a 150+ OPS. If Viciedo played a premium defensive position you could afford to wait on his bat to develop. LF'ers have to produce pretty much from day 1.

Offense + Defense = Production, because when the whole idea is to win a ballgame, saving/preventing a run is just as good as scoring a run. In LF you're generally talking about a player with a major deficiency, either in terms of arm strength, power, OBP, range etc. plus a couple key strengths, like you'll have a Viciedo type (arm+power, low OBP, not so rangey) or a Pierre type (speed, range, no arm, also low OBP) etc. When you say LFers have to produce right away, produce like what? Who are you comparing to? The best players are almost always in CF and RF. Viciedo's arm and power gives him attributes a lot of other LF types aren't going to have, and what LFers out there is he supposed to most closely resemble? Especially in his first full season?

 

Also I'm not sure what the theme of your posts is other than basic negativity and hatred of KW. You obviously want to contend (you want to upgrade over Viciedo) but at the same time you hate your aggressive GM who does nothing but try to contend. What are you looking for? You want good, young, productive players then it means you have to acquire them before they become stars, play them, live with their mistakes, live with the growing pains, and if it works out then you can enjoy it when they turn out. If OTOH you just want productive vets then you can have a run for a couple of years if things go right, but if they don't, and teams aren't willing to take on all your massive payroll mistakes, then you get a nice several seasons of completely miserable baseball before you can acquire another core to build around. And as much as it sucks to watch a bunch of half-hearts like this team try to back into the postseason, it sucks a whole lot more when you're out of it in June.

[Marty34]

Offense + Defense = Production, because when the whole idea is to win a ballgame, saving/preventing a run is just as good as scoring a run. In LF you're generally talking about a player with a major deficiency, either in terms of arm strength, power, OBP, range etc. plus a couple key strengths, like you'll have a Viciedo type (arm+power, low OBP, not so rangey) or a Pierre type (speed, range, no arm, also low OBP) etc. When you say LFers have to produce right away, produce like what? Who are you comparing to? The best players are almost always in CF and RF. Viciedo's arm and power gives him attributes a lot of other LF types aren't going to have, and what LFers out there is he supposed to most closely resemble? Especially in his first full season?

 

Also I'm not sure what the theme of your posts is other than basic negativity and hatred of KW. You obviously want to contend (you want to upgrade over Viciedo) but at the same time you hate your aggressive GM who does nothing but try to contend. What are you looking for? You want good, young, productive players then it means you have to acquire them before they become stars, play them, live with their mistakes, live with the growing pains, and if it works out then you can enjoy it when they turn out. If OTOH you just want productive vets then you can have a run for a couple of years if things go right, but if they don't, and teams aren't willing to take on all your massive payroll mistakes, then you get a nice several seasons of completely miserable baseball before you can acquire another core to build around. And as much as it sucks to watch a bunch of half-hearts like this team try to back into the postseason, it sucks a whole lot more when you're out of it in June.

 

First, Kenny Williams is a very good man, I like him a lot.

 

This team's window to win is this season, it's not the time to develop of all things a LF'er at the cost of postseason baseball.

[caulfield12]

First, Kenny Williams is a very good man, I like him a lot.

 

This team's window to win is this season, it's not the time to develop of all things a LF'er at the cost of postseason baseball.

 

 

Gee.

 

Also not the time to develop.....

 

1) Reed and Nathan Jones as critical bullpen guys

2) Gordon Beckham for his fourth straight year

3) Brent Morel for key stretches of the first month and a half

4) Numerous rookie relievers

5) Tyler Flowers with inconsistent at-bats

6) Quintana and Santiago

7) Jordan Danks

 

But we did all of those things and more this season.

 

We STILL should have been leading the division with ALL of those things happening (above and beyond Viciedo's development), and we're still ONLY 1 game back with five to play.

[kitekrazy]

Gee.

 

Also not the time to develop.....

 

1) Reed and Nathan Jones as critical bullpen guys

2) Gordon Beckham for his fourth straight year

3) Brent Morel for key stretches of the first month and a half

4) Numerous rookie relievers

5) Tyler Flowers with inconsistent at-bats

6) Quintana and Santiago

7) Jordan Danks

 

But we did all of those things and more this season.

 

We STILL should have been leading the division with ALL of those things happening (above and beyond Viciedo's development), and we're still ONLY 1 game back with five to play.

 

It was a rebuild gone all wrong. They were suppose to totally suck and season over by June. Don't ya hate it when things don't work out that way?

 

[LittleHurt05]

The 7th best team in the AL is probably gonna advance to the World Series.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The 7th best team in the AL is probably gonna advance to the World Series.

 

You're probably right. And which is why the Sox inability to get to the playoffs more frequently in what is routinely the weakest division in the AL is inexcusable. I'm not that pissed about '12. I expected 95 losses and they did some good things this year. But this was KW's "free" pass year, or whatever you want to call it. The Tigers are not as good as I thought they would be. And they still got by with a meager 88 wins and they're now feasting in the playoffs. Which again shows if you get there, you've got a shot. We just can't get there enough. Starting next year, some folks (KW) truly need to be held accountable. Can't blame Ozzie, one of the worst baseball managers I've ever seen, anymore.