A new philosophy in order?

[kitekrazy]

 

This is not about individual players but how the organization goes about things.

 

 

Looking at April-July, I saw one of the more fundamental sound Sox teams. Ventura and Manto had a lot to do with that. We saw much better plate discipline.

 

 

Watching post season collapse which usually starts around the trading deadline came late this year. I still believe the Sox are mental midgets because we see so many players not handle pressure. This season we had more players with very little MLB experience and that is a big factor going down the stretch.

 

Some things I would change:

 

1. No more NL talent. It's such a different league. Only the top of the top (Pujols, Fielder) seem more successful.

2. Investing too much money in the DH. I liked Ozzie's idea of having players that can do other things than swing a bat. That failed because of #1.

3. Better scouting of free agents/trades. Do they look at every stat imaginable? How they do against opponents, environment, line up, ect. Even those turn into mental midgets. Do players from habitually losing organizations really help your team?

 

Things I don't know.

 

1. Are all of the minor league affiliates on the same page with the major league team?

2. Philosophy of drafting. Filling the catcher and third base may get expensive. Do they draft for need? Can they fill this void by trading other prospects? Do they draft more athletes or baseball players?

3. Over all shape of the farm system. This season may prove how weak the farm system is more than how strong. The alternative for the catching and 3rd spot doesn't look good. The closer may be a question mark as well.

4. Too many power hitters? That seems to make sense playing at the Cell but after reading the OBP thread it makes you wonder.

 

The biggest one is will Hahn make a difference? He's seen the same thing we have, does he have a different way of doing things or is the real fly in the ointment of this organization sticking with mediocrity Jerry Reinsdorf?

[Dick Allen]

If the reports are true and Hahn is the GM, I do think things will be a little different, but not drastically especially if KW is still around. Hahn has been more involved in recent years in all aspects, I think before he basically was a contracts guy, so there's that. I think the difference is he will do the leg work and be the point man with the other teams instead of KW, it will be interesting how the offseason goes. There should be some money to spend. John Danks should be back. Its, IMO, not nearly the doom and gloom some predict. They are still in the AL Central. I don't see how anyone can say Detroit will definitely be better. If a couple of bullpen guys step up and guys like Quintana can show this year wasn't a fluke and build on it, there should be no reason they can't be in the race next season. I wonder if they will try to re-sign Youk or if he is heading back to Boston to play 1B.

[kitekrazy]

If the reports are true and Hahn is the GM, I do think things will be a little different, but not drastically especially if KW is still around. Hahn has been more involved in recent years in all aspects, I think before he basically was a contracts guy, so there's that. I think the difference is he will do the leg work and be the point man with the other teams instead of KW, it will be interesting how the offseason goes. There should be some money to spend. John Danks should be back. Its, IMO, not nearly the doom and gloom some predict. They are still in the AL Central. I don't see how anyone can say Detroit will definitely be better. If a couple of bullpen guys step up and guys like Quintana can show this year wasn't a fluke and build on it, there should be no reason they can't be in the race next season. I wonder if they will try to re-sign Youk or if he is heading back to Boston to play 1B.

 

I'm looking at the bigger picture.

 

We don't do well with NL players. NL stats don't translate to AL stats unless they are bad ones.

 

If Coop believes in pitching to contact, is this the same philosophy in A-AAA? Is Coop no longer effective and may be best he moved to minor league instruction?

 

At least this offseason the organization is keeping their mouths shut about next year.

 

 

[JoshPR]

To pitch to contact you have to have good defense, this year is one of the first years I remember the sox having that. It's about execution, and the problem us every guy on the roster wants to hit the ball out, sometimes you have to have the Chris Getz type players, who run, bunt do lil things that know they ain't gonna hit homers so they won't try for them. Another thing is the dumb plays, this were Lexi and de aza come in, ohhh yeah you look at the stats and people argue, but how many games? How many leads, how much more pressure on the pitcher do these bonehead plays cause?? Those are intangibles, things that help win, something Lexi and de aza lack. Now they don't lack ability that they got, but when the miles count how many times have they made a bonehead play, remember the DP last year where Lexi fancied it to first and threw it away? It opened the flood gates to the big inning and that's just one of a lot. The need to get a game plan, ok these are the players were gonna develop, this is our philosophy, but at times they seem tied back by financials

[greg775]

The change in philosophy has to start with placing more value on divisional opponents. For whatever reason, the White Sox have a difficult time winning games against teams in their own division. As long as the Sox continue to suck in that regard, it's going to be difficult to win a division by more than a game or two.

 

The total September collapse shows this team is basically a team with an upside of about five games over .500. The downside could be a team out of it by late May.

 

1B - Paulie. If he was injured, there's a chance he could return to the Paulie we know and love. If he was not injured, then obviously he's on the decline.

2B - Beckham. He is an average baseball player. I'd keep him because of his defense.

SS - Lexi. He is an undisciplined baseball player, nothing special. At this point, he's expendable via trade.

3B - We have NONE. Scary. I would re-sign Youk somehow.

LF - Viciedo. He is an average offensive player right now. Does he have upside? Yes. Should anybody be confident he'll ever be great? No.

CF - DeAza. Very nice ballplayer. The injury bugs are a concern. Can he sustain a whole season? I'd say give him another shot.

RF - Rios. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him.

DH - Dunn. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him.

 

Pitchers

Danks- Pray he is effective upon his return.

Sale - Give him a standing ovation and let him pitch.

Floyd - Very average pitcher who is nothing special. he's just another guy.

Q - Verdict is out. Age is in his corner.

Peavy - He's gone back to the NL I suppose.

Omigrosso - He can't be in our starting rotation next year. Not ready.

Thornton - Get rid of him.

Jones - Has potential. I'd rework his pitching motion completely.

Crain - Get rid of him.

Reed - He is good.

Veal - He is good, not as good yet as some on this board believe.

 

The bullpen has potential to be acceptable next season if Jones changes his delivery and gets more consistent and Veal is a good lefty specialist. We need 2-3 relievers who can pitch a full inning in the true role of a setup guy. Thornton must go.

 

Verdict: Team will be much worse next season without major overhaul. Sox got career years from Rios, AJ, Paulie the first half, Dunn and didn't win anything of note.

 

GO SOX!! Make some moves.

[elrockinMT]

The change in philosophy has to start with placing more value on divisional opponents. For whatever reason, the White Sox have a difficult time winning games against teams in their own division. As long as the Sox continue to suck in that regard, it's going to be difficult to win a division by more than a game or two.

 

The total September collapse shows this team is basically a team with an upside of about five games over .500. The downside could be a team out of it by late May.

 

1B - Paulie. If he was injured, there's a chance he could return to the Paulie we know and love. If he was not injured, then obviously he's on the decline.

2B - Beckham. He is an average baseball player. I'd keep him because of his defense.

SS - Lexi. He is an undisciplined baseball player, nothing special. At this point, he's expendable via trade.

3B - We have NONE. Scary. I would re-sign Youk somehow.

LF - Viciedo. He is an average offensive player right now. Does he have upside? Yes. Should anybody be confident he'll ever be great? No.

CF - DeAza. Very nice ballplayer. The injury bugs are a concern. Can he sustain a whole season? I'd say give him another shot.

RF - Rios. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him.

DH - Dunn. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him.

 

Pitchers

Danks- Pray he is effective upon his return.

Sale - Give him a standing ovation and let him pitch.

Floyd - Very average pitcher who is nothing special. he's just another guy.

Q - Verdict is out. Age is in his corner.

Peavy - He's gone back to the NL I suppose.

Omigrosso - He can't be in our starting rotation next year. Not ready.

Thornton - Get rid of him.

Jones - Has potential. I'd rework his pitching motion completely.

Crain - Get rid of him.

Reed - He is good.

Veal - He is good, not as good yet as some on this board believe.

 

The bullpen has potential to be acceptable next season if Jones changes his delivery and gets more consistent and Veal is a good lefty specialist. We need 2-3 relievers who can pitch a full inning in the true role of a setup guy. Thornton must go.

 

Verdict: Team will be much worse next season without major overhaul. Sox got career years from Rios, AJ, Paulie the first half, Dunn and didn't win anything of note.

 

GO SOX!! Make some moves.

 

 

When you don't win there are lots of critical evaluations. If you win they are all all-stars. I do believe this will be an interesting off season.

[chw42]

This is not about individual players but how the organization goes about things.

 

 

Looking at April-July, I saw one of the more fundamental sound Sox teams. Ventura and Manto had a lot to do with that. We saw much better plate discipline.

 

 

Watching post season collapse which usually starts around the trading deadline came late this year. I still believe the Sox are mental midgets because we see so many players not handle pressure. This season we had more players with very little MLB experience and that is a big factor going down the stretch.

 

Some things I would change:

 

1. No more NL talent. It's such a different league. Only the top of the top (Pujols, Fielder) seem more successful.

2. Investing too much money in the DH. I liked Ozzie's idea of having players that can do other things than swing a bat. That failed because of #1.

3. Better scouting of free agents/trades. Do they look at every stat imaginable? How they do against opponents, environment, line up, ect. Even those turn into mental midgets. Do players from habitually losing organizations really help your team?

 

Things I don't know.

 

1. Are all of the minor league affiliates on the same page with the major league team?

2. Philosophy of drafting. Filling the catcher and third base may get expensive. Do they draft for need? Can they fill this void by trading other prospects? Do they draft more athletes or baseball players?

3. Over all shape of the farm system. This season may prove how weak the farm system is more than how strong. The alternative for the catching and 3rd spot doesn't look good. The closer may be a question mark as well.

4. Too many power hitters? That seems to make sense playing at the Cell but after reading the OBP thread it makes you wonder.

 

The biggest one is will Hahn make a difference? He's seen the same thing we have, does he have a different way of doing things or is the real fly in the ointment of this organization sticking with mediocrity Jerry Reinsdorf?

 

The idea of a rotating DH isn't bad, per say. You just need good players to do it. The Sox have never had good part-time designated hitters (well, Andruw Jones wasn't too bad).

 

[kitekrazy]

The point of my thread is not about individual players but how the organization goes about things.

 

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

The change in philosophy has to start with placing more value on divisional opponents. For whatever reason, the White Sox have a difficult time winning games against teams in their own division. As long as the Sox continue to suck in that regard, it's going to be difficult to win a division by more than a game or two.

 

How does a team even do that?

 

The total September collapse shows this team is basically a team with an upside of about five games over .500. The downside could be a team out of it by late May.

 

This team was on track to win 90+ games before the collapse started happening, I wouldnt say all that.

 

1B - Paulie. If he was injured, there's a chance he could return to the Paulie we know and love. If he was not injured, then obviously he's on the decline.

Hasn't Hawk mentioned it many a times he's dealing with something?? Idk why this is in question

 

2B - Beckham. He is an average baseball player. I'd keep him because of his defense.

Agreed, but if he has trade value I'd trade him for a good #2 hitter.

SS - Lexi. He is an undisciplined baseball player, nothing special. At this point, he's expendable via trade.

That .340+ Batting with RISP after our struggles in that department look pretty attractive

3B - We have NONE. Scary. I would re-sign Youk somehow.

Unless they have the money for Wright, or make a trade Youk will be back

LF - Viciedo. He is an average offensive player right now. Does he have upside? Yes. Should anybody be confident he'll ever be great? No.

This is his first full year in the bigs, it'd be pretty dumb not to think he improves. Great? maybe not. Good? possible.

CF - DeAza. Very nice ballplayer. The injury bugs are a concern. Can he sustain a whole season? I'd say give him another shot.

There's no question he should be the teams leadoff hitter next year.

RF - Rios. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him.

Unless I'm getting a starter in return no thanks

DH - Dunn. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him.

Unless we get a 3 or 4 hitter no thanks

 

 

Pitchers

Danks- Pray he is effective upon his return.

Sale - Give him a standing ovation and let him pitch.

Floyd - Very average pitcher who is nothing special. he's just another guy.

Q - Verdict is out. Age is in his corner.

Peavy - He's gone back to the NL I suppose.

Omigrosso - He can't be in our starting rotation next year. Not ready.

Has he even a starter in the minors??

Thornton - Get rid of him.

He gets far too much disrespect here. He's a good weapon to have, just not as a late inning guy

Jones - Has potential. I'd rework his pitching motion completely.

Huh?

Crain - Get rid of him.

Why?? his 2.49 (2.21 in the 2nd half) era not good enough for you?

Reed - He is good.

Veal - He is good, not as good yet as some on this board believe.

He's flat out filthy, I think he takes over the late inning left role.

 

The bullpen has potential to be acceptable next season if Jones changes his delivery and gets more consistent and Veal is a good lefty specialist. We need 2-3 relievers who can pitch a full inning in the true role of a setup guy. Thornton must go.

 

Verdict: Team will be much worse next season without major overhaul. Sox got career years from Rios, AJ, Paulie the first half, Dunn and didn't win anything of note.

 

 

 

GO SOX!! Make some moves.

 

[2nd_city_saint787]

The point of my thread is not about individual players but how the organization goes about things.

 

whoops.

 

I dont get your post to be honest....IMO they made all the right moves in the last 2 years.

 

I disagree on the DH by committee unless they get a big bopper that can play multiple positions. Pre Dunn it was pretty clear the sox needed another bopper at the DH. Dunn may have a low average and a low Obp this year but he's been productive, thats what you ask for in a DH, production.

 

I'd be interested in seeing the stats on players coming from the NL to the AL, I think its a bit of a mirage.

 

 

[nickofypres]

I actually like having a DH who can hit bombs.

 

 

[Real]

the only reason we aren't going to the playoffs

 

sale and quintana are past their innings limits and they're probably beyond dead arms

the veterans choked, plain and simple

 

this hasn't got anything to do with NL talent or scouting (unless it's scouting the opponent that you're playing that particular series)

 

now, this thread could explain why the team only has 83 wins right now, but it doesn't explain the collapse. the collapse is because we have veteran players who cannot play in pressure situations, and they never will until certain people are gone from this roster/staff (Coop had his issues last year with certain players and coaches, and I'm tired of his schtick to be honest, and AJ has rubbed a lot of his teammates the wrong way from what I've heard this year)

 

alexei ramirez definitely needs to be dealt, his career is starting to look like Iguchi's once the league figured him out. guys like Beckham need to be considered as well.

 

too much money invested in Rios and Dunn (another f***ing choker). Dunn will be moved if an offer comes along, I would bet money on that. Way too much money invested in that dude, same with Rios

Peavy's salary coming off the books will help going into next year, but this front office is going to have to really turn this team around if they plan on competing with the tigers next year

 

personally I think Detroit runs away with it in 2013

[kitekrazy]

whoops.

 

I dont get your post to be honest....IMO they made all the right moves in the last 2 years.

 

I disagree on the DH by committee unless they get a big bopper that can play multiple positions. Pre Dunn it was pretty clear the sox needed another bopper at the DH. Dunn may have a low average and a low Obp this year but he's been productive, thats what you ask for in a DH, production.

I'd be interested in seeing the stats on players coming from the NL to the AL, I think its a bit of a mirage.

 

 

But they haven't made the right moves. It's over priced mediocrity.

 

Dunn has not been productive for a #3 hitter. His high K rate takes you out of rallies. Pitchers don't pitch around him.

 

History is not good for the Sox signing NL talent because they don't sign the top players.

 

[kitekrazy]

I actually like having a DH who can hit bombs.

 

I want one who can drive in runs, creates intentional walks, doesn't fan more than his average. HRs look nice on the back of baseball cards.

 

Part of the problem is Kenny probably looks at the back of baseball cards to make decisions.

Edited October 1, 2012 by kitekrazy

[chw42]

the only reason we aren't going to the playoffs

 

sale and quintana are past their innings limits and they're probably beyond dead arms

the veterans choked, plain and simple

 

this hasn't got anything to do with NL talent or scouting (unless it's scouting the opponent that you're playing that particular series)

 

now, this thread could explain why the team only has 83 wins right now, but it doesn't explain the collapse. the collapse is because we have veteran players who cannot play in pressure situations, and they never will until certain people are gone from this roster/staff (Coop had his issues last year with certain players and coaches, and I'm tired of his schtick to be honest, and AJ has rubbed a lot of his teammates the wrong way from what I've heard this year)

 

alexei ramirez definitely needs to be dealt, his career is starting to look like Iguchi's once the league figured him out. guys like Beckham need to be considered as well.

 

too much money invested in Rios and Dunn (another f***ing choker). Dunn will be moved if an offer comes along, I would bet money on that. Way too much money invested in that dude, same with Rios

Peavy's salary coming off the books will help going into next year, but this front office is going to have to really turn this team around if they plan on competing with the tigers next year

 

personally I think Detroit runs away with it in 2013

 

Adam Dunn hit probably the biggest home run of the season at the time he hit it. He's also hurt right now with a side problem. I wouldn't call him a choker.

[greg775]

Adam Dunn hit probably the biggest home run of the season at the time he hit it. He's also hurt right now with a side problem. I wouldn't call him a choker.

 

Dunn had a good year. He had so many key home runs during the period when we were a good team. His BA did suck this season again, but he was damn good when the team was good, not this pathetic aberration-team of the past month.

[chw42]

I want one who can drive in runs, creates intentional walks, doesn't fan more than his average. HRs look nice on the back of baseball cards.

 

Part of the problem is Kenny probably looks at the back of baseball cards to make decisions.

 

Adam Dunn leads the team in RBI, he leads the team in walks (and probably intentional walks as well). The only thing he doesn't meet is the fact he can't hit for average.

 

Yeah, it sucks to have a #3 hitter hitting .205. But he's also got a .270+ ISO and a walk rate of 16%.

 

I think the solution is to not bat Dunn 3rd. Hit him 5th or 6th next year until he can get the batting average up to at least .230. If his OBP isn't around .370, it's really not worthwhile to hit him 3rd.

[JoshPR]

Sorry but individual players were used as examples...

[hogan873]

This was another patchwork team put together by KW. This team almost pulled it off. I imagine we'll see a change next season, but I'm not sure it'll be huge. 2014 may look a lot different, however as more contracts are coming to an end.

[cabiness42]

This is not about individual players but how the organization goes about things.

 

 

Looking at April-July, I saw one of the more fundamental sound Sox teams. Ventura and Manto had a lot to do with that. We saw much better plate discipline.

 

 

Watching post season collapse which usually starts around the trading deadline came late this year. I still believe the Sox are mental midgets because we see so many players not handle pressure. This season we had more players with very little MLB experience and that is a big factor going down the stretch.

 

Some things I would change:

 

1. No more NL talent. It's such a different league. Only the top of the top (Pujols, Fielder) seem more successful.

2. Investing too much money in the DH. I liked Ozzie's idea of having players that can do other things than swing a bat. That failed because of #1.

3. Better scouting of free agents/trades. Do they look at every stat imaginable? How they do against opponents, environment, line up, ect. Even those turn into mental midgets. Do players from habitually losing organizations really help your team?

 

Things I don't know.

 

1. Are all of the minor league affiliates on the same page with the major league team?

2. Philosophy of drafting. Filling the catcher and third base may get expensive. Do they draft for need? Can they fill this void by trading other prospects? Do they draft more athletes or baseball players?

3. Over all shape of the farm system. This season may prove how weak the farm system is more than how strong. The alternative for the catching and 3rd spot doesn't look good. The closer may be a question mark as well.

4. Too many power hitters? That seems to make sense playing at the Cell but after reading the OBP thread it makes you wonder.

 

The biggest one is will Hahn make a difference? He's seen the same thing we have, does he have a different way of doing things or is the real fly in the ointment of this organization sticking with mediocrity Jerry Reinsdorf?

 

Dunn isn't the DH because he has to DH. He has played 1B more than adequately this year, and he probably wouldn't be too much worse than Viciedo in LF if he was absolutely needed there. The performance of the DH is about 42nd on the list of problems with this year's team, sandwiched in between some blades of grass in the infield being too long and the 3rd light on the second row of the LF light pole being 10% too dim.

 

I don't think there was that much better plate discipline in April-July. The players still had bad plate discipline but got on hot streaks. For most part, plate discipline is a personnel issue and not a coaching issue.

 

Too much power is not the problem, it's that a lot of the power comes with low OBP. There are plenty of guys with power that can also get key hits/walks when needed, it's just that the Sox don't have any of them.

[cabiness42]

Dunn has not been productive for a #3 hitter. His high K rate takes you out of rallies. Pitchers don't pitch around him.

 

Adam Dunn leads the league in walks and somebody complains that pitchers don't pitch around him. I give up.

 

 

[oldsox]

The White Sox remind me of out Ryder Cup team, and vice versa.

[ShandyMan]

they'll take another shot at it next year. too many commitments to not.

[2nd_city_saint787]

But they haven't made the right moves. It's over priced mediocrity.

 

Dunn has not been productive for a #3 hitter. His high K rate takes you out of rallies. Pitchers don't pitch around him.

 

History is not good for the Sox signing NL talent because they don't sign the top players.

 

23rd in RBIs and 3rd in HRs not productive enough for you?

 

When we got Dunn he was EXACTLY what we needed, a power hitting LHer.

[Jake]

Adam Dunn leads the league in walks and somebody complains that pitchers don't pitch around him. I give up.