The Debates!

[StrangeSox]

Actually because of Bush.

 

Now stop spinning your wheels, your bias is showing.

 

Not that everyone isn't already aware of it.

Iraqis forced the timeline and refused to extend it, not Bush.

[StrangeSox]

First, this is the case with just about every administration - you inherit certain problems and by timing alone you get credit for fixing certain problems.

 

Second, Obama and the Dems act as if they had no role in it either. Both are to blame for the policies of the last 15 years.

lol no, Democrats are not to blame for Bush's unfunded tax cuts and Medicare Advantage and lying us into the Iraq war.

[Y2HH]

I didn't comment on Afghanistan because Obama campaigned on increasing that war. Obama "kept" Iraq going by following the scheduled end of the war that all sides agreed to. Saying that he continued the war without noting that he was following the SOF agreement with Iraq for the scheduled end of combat operations and the draw down of troops removes a lot of context.

 

But note that Biden's point was in relation to the deficit and paying for those wars. Bush's budgets pretended that those wars didn't exist and therefore they weren't accounted for in the budget and they certainly weren't paid for and Ryan went right along with that. That comment was centered on supposed budget-hawk Ryan only finding his budget-hawkery in January 2009 after being the budget leader under Bush.

 

You aren't going to get much argument from me when it comes to budgets/deficits/debt and Bush.

 

Whether people admit that or not, or use accounting tricks to hide it makes no difference to me.

 

My point is, a lot of what Obama promised to do in his campaign, he did the opposite when he became president...and continued most of what Bush had started. Whether he was forced too or not doesn't matter to me...what matters is he did.

[iamshack]

First, this is the case with just about every administration - you inherit certain problems and by timing alone you get credit for fixing certain problems.

 

Second, Obama and the Dems act as if they had no role in it either. Both are to blame for the policies of the last 15 years.

The state of things as Obama inherited them 4 years ago was historic in nature...these were not "certain problems." GMAFB.

 

Secondly, as I said, both in the post you replied to and the one I referenced after the first debate, I think the strategy is better to admit there have been struggles; no one is perfect and these problems were extraordinarily complex. But the policies of the last 15 years? I suppose one could fault Clinton for not using the economic conditions during his term to invest more in energy independence, but what other current issues are you going to link back to his term?

[Soxbadger]

Somalia or other humanitarian causes were the context for that one.

 

Since when is combating piracy not part of the US national interest.

 

It may have been one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard in my life. I can literally argue that everything that has ever happened or will happen is part of the US national interest.

[Y2HH]

Iraqis forced the timeline and refused to extend it, not Bush.

 

...and Bush eventually accepted and signed that deal, not Obama. Thus he will get credit for it.

[Y2HH]

The state of things as Obama inherited them 4 years ago was historic in nature...these were not "certain problems." GMAFB.

 

Secondly, as I said, both in the post you replied to and the one I referenced after the first debate, I think the strategy is better to admit there have been struggles; no one is perfect and these problems were extraordinarily complex. But the policies of the last 15 years? I suppose one could fault Clinton for not using the economic conditions during his term to invest more in energy independence, but what other current issues are you going to link back to his term?

 

Bush inherited a .com bust, which was historic in nature, too. I don't find it was an excuse for him, and I don't find this as an excuse for Obama.

 

He was elected to lead us out of this, not fail and point back and say, well...his fault. I don't accept that, and neither should you. We elected him on the promise he'd lead us out of this...so he needs to do that, instead of playing a blame game which you've seemed to accept as ok.

 

It's not ok.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Y2HH

[StrangeSox]

Since when is combating piracy not part of the US national interest.

 

It may have been one of the stupidest statements I have ever heard in my life. I can literally argue that everything that has ever happened or will happen is part of the US national interest.

 

I was thinking Black Hawk Down in that regard. You could maybe toss Kosovo in there, too. We've stayed out of Darfur and we stayed out of Rwanda.

[StrangeSox]

Bush inherited a .com bust, which was historic in nature, too.

 

Bush's minor recession was not historic in nature.

[Jenksismyhero]

lol no, Democrats are not to blame for Bush's unfunded tax cuts and Medicare Advantage and lying us into the Iraq war.

 

No, but their "owning a home is a right" mantra directly contributed to the housing bubble bursting in the midst of those wars. I don't recall the Dems exactly fighting Bush on the prescription drug plan either. And both parties have failed miserably in keeping Wall Street in check so.... yes, both are to blame for the recession.

[Y2HH]

Bush's minor recession was not historic in nature.

 

Um, seriously?

 

The .com collapse was historic in nature.

 

You fail at stock market.

[Soxbadger]

Bush inherited a .com bust, which was historic in nature, too.

 

Which is why economic debates are so hilarious.

 

Clinton happened to be president during a tech boom so he is a brilliant man. If tomorrow I invented a new fuel that replaced oil and every other country started using it, the President would be considered an economic genius.

 

Which is really why social issues, human rights, etc are the most important. Economics is far more unpredictable and I really believe the times make the man in that regard.

[Y2HH]

Which is why economic debates are so hilarious.

 

Clinton happened to be president during a tech boom so he is a brilliant man. If tomorrow I invented a new fuel that replaced oil and every other country started using it, the President would be considered an economic genius.

 

Which is really why social issues, human rights, etc are the most important. Economics is far more unpredictable and I really believe the times make the man in that regard.

 

We agree.

[bmags]

No, but their "owning a home is a right" mantra directly contributed to the housing bubble bursting in the midst of those wars. I don't recall the Dems exactly fighting Bush on the prescription drug plan either. And both parties have failed miserably in keeping Wall Street in check so.... yes, both are to blame for the recession.

 

The republicans did a parlor trick to extend the voting deadline 15 minutes to whip more votes to get it done.

[StrangeSox]

Um, seriously?

 

The .com collapse was historic in nature.

 

You fail at stock market.

 

Yes, seriously. The stock market is not the economy, but even if it were a perfect measure, you'd still be wrong.

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

No, but their "owning a home is a right" mantra directly contributed to the housing bubble bursting in the midst of those wars. I don't recall the Dems exactly fighting Bush on the prescription drug plan either. And both parties have failed miserably in keeping Wall Street in check so.... yes, both are to blame for the recession.

 

You mean Bush and his "ownership society?"

 

Clinton does deserve blame for signing the repeal of Glass-Steagall, though.

[iamshack]

Um, seriously?

 

The .com collapse was historic in nature.

 

You fail at stock market.

Even with the .com collapse, things were nowhere near as bad as in '08-'09. Agree?

[Jenksismyhero]

You mean Bush and his "ownership society?"

 

Clinton does deserve blame for signing the repeal of Glass-Steagall, though.

 

Or Barney Frank, Obama and other congressional Dems allowing the sub-prime crisis to happen:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122212948811465427.html

Edited October 12, 2012 by Jenksismybitch

[bmags]

Or Barney Frank, Obama and other congressional Dems allowing the sub-prime crists to happen:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122212948811465427.html

 

Fannie and Freddie had their part in the housing crisis. But a lot of things had their part in the housing crisis. The issue wasn't sub-prime themselves, it was the belief that there was no national housing market, and that wallstreet was safe as long as they diversified s***ty loans in florida with s***ty loans in arizona.

[StrangeSox]

Or Barney Frank, Obama and other congressional Dems allowing the sub-prime crisis to happen:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122212948811465427.html

 

Non-FHA mortgage brokers and the derivatives market and ratings agencies were responsible, not Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac or the community reinvestment act. That crap was debunked years ago. It's sad that anyone would still believe that.

[Jenksismyhero]

Fannie and Freddie had their part in the housing crisis. But a lot of things had their part in the housing crisis. The issue wasn't sub-prime themselves, it was the belief that there was no national housing market, and that wallstreet was safe as long as they diversified s***ty loans in florida with s***ty loans in arizona.

 

But Fannie and Freddie bought up those terrible sub-prime mortgages and were allowed to continue to do so by the congressional Dems.

 

All i'm saying is it's not exactly honest of Biden to point to Ryan and say "this is all on you guys." This was a problem that took decades to develop, even if the wars became a substantial cost later on.

[StrangeSox]

Fannie and Freddie had their part in the housing crisis. But a lot of things had their part in the housing crisis. The issue wasn't sub-prime themselves, it was the belief that there was no national housing market, and that wallstreet was safe as long as they diversified s***ty loans in florida with s***ty loans in arizona.

Fannie and Freddie were late to the game and got in at the tail-end of the bubble. Their loans defaulted significantly less frequently than the private market.

[StrangeSox]

But Fannie and Freddie bought up those terrible sub-prime mortgages and were allowed to continue to do so by the congressional Dems.

 

All i'm saying is it's not exactly honest of Biden to point to Ryan and say "this is all on you guys." This was a problem that took decades to develop, even if the wars became a substantial cost later on.

 

The spending enacted under Bush when Ryan was lead budget guy is their responsibility. The tax cuts, the unfunded wars, and Medicare are the largest sources of the deficit. That was Biden's point and he was absolutely correct.

 

Fannie and Freddie were a minor role in the subprime market and outperformed their private-sector peers. They were, at worst, a minor factor in the problem. The problem was shady mortgage brokers knowingly making bad loans, investment bankers cobbling together poorly understood securities and leveraging themselves out on huge margins and absolutely no check on any of it.

Edited October 12, 2012 by StrangeSox

[mr_genius]

Non-FHA mortgage brokers and the derivatives market and ratings agencies were responsible

 

 

All Obama's buddies. He even dished out billion dollar tax payer bonuses to them. They paid too many bribes to fail.

[StrangeSox]

All Obama's buddies. He even dished out billion dollar tax payer bonuses to them. They paid too many bribes to fail.

at least we're finally getting around to some prosecutions and lawsuits 4+ years after the fact!