John Danks surgery/rehab/recovery thread

[witesoxfan]

Because Axelrod was named as the 5th starter

[joeynach]

Joseph ‏@Joeynach 26 Mar @ChrisRongey Any info on velocity of Danks FB this spring. Was major issue last yr given the injury, -1.5 mph vs. 2011 & 2010 per fangraphs.

 

Chris Rongey ‏@ChrisRongey 26 Mar @Joeynach He's been mid-to-upper 80s all spring.

 

 

 

 

That being said, fangraphs had is FB velocity at 91.7 in both 2010 and 2011. In 2012 he dipped -1.5mph to 90.2 mph, assumable b/c of the capsular tear. B/c of that -1.5 dip he got beat up pretty bad, his K/9 dropped, BB/9 up, his H/9 way up, his BAA skyrocketed, his HR/9 went up, his BABIP went up, his ERA went through the roof. Simply put if he is not able to throw in the low 90's meaning at least 91.7 mph or better, he either won't be back or he won't be effective. My opinion, I don't even want to see him talked about as an option for the sox until he has demonstrated enough recovery and arm strength to be at 91.7+ MPH consistently.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2013 by joeynach

[flavum]

^

I agree with that. Basically, they need to keep Danks in Arizona until he's throwing at his normal velocity. Then send him to Charlotte until he can throw a quality start.

 

They'll know it when they see it from him. I'm not worried about the Sox rushing him back.

[Balta1701]

^

I agree with that. Basically, they need to keep Danks in Arizona until he's throwing at his normal velocity. Then send him to Charlotte until he can throw a quality start.

 

They'll know it when they see it from him. I'm not worried about the Sox rushing him back.

i know we've been saying this all spring, but it really doesn't sound like velocity is his problem.

[Jack Parkman]

i know we've been saying this all spring, but it really doesn't sound like velocity is his problem.

But the thing is, velocity is his problem because of the FB-changeup difference. There was an article a while back that stated for a changeup to be most effective it should be 8-10 mph slower than the fastball. Danks's change is his out pitch and if there is probably very little difference right now from his fastball. Danks at his best was pitching anywhere from 91-94 with the fastball and 82-85 with the change which falls into the 8-10 mph difference, hence making it very effective. I am speculating that Danks is pitching 85-89 with the fastball, but the change is staying the same. That is why he couldn't get anyone out this spring. His change is now just like a batting practice fastball, rather than a true change. Danks is left-handed which is his saving grace if he doesn't regain his velocity, but if that becomes the case, he is going to have to learn a new grip or something to slow the change to the 75-78 mph range, and learn a slow curve or something like that to keep hitters off balance.

[ScottyDo]

But the thing is, velocity is his problem because of the FB-changeup difference. There was an article a while back that stated for a changeup to be most effective it should be 8-10 mph slower than the fastball. Danks's change is his out pitch and if there is probably very little difference right now from his fastball. Danks at his best was pitching anywhere from 91-94 with the fastball and 82-85 with the change which falls into the 8-10 mph difference, hence making it very effective. I am speculating that Danks is pitching 85-89 with the fastball, but the change is staying the same. That is why he couldn't get anyone out this spring. His change is now just like a batting practice fastball, rather than a true change. Danks is left-handed which is his saving grace if he doesn't regain his velocity, but if that becomes the case, he is going to have to learn a new grip or something to slow the change to the 75-78 mph range, and learn a slow curve or something like that to keep hitters off balance.

I'm no expert, but I don't see how this makes sense mechanically. If he is having trouble generating arm speed due to shoulder problems, he won't be getting to full arm speed on either pitch. I bet his change is still significantly slower than his fastball (maybe not the 8-10 ideal), but his fastball is just eminently hittable so you don't have to adjust for it.

[Jack Parkman]

I'm no expert, but I don't see how this makes sense mechanically. If he is having trouble generating arm speed due to shoulder problems, he won't be getting to full arm speed on either pitch. I bet his change is still significantly slower than his fastball (maybe not the 8-10 ideal), but his fastball is just eminently hittable so you don't have to adjust for it.

What makes the changeup slow is the grip, rather than arm speed. You want the arm speed to be the same for both otherwise you tip your pitch. Every pitcher who throws one has their own grip for it.(as far as I know) There was an article on either ESPN or SI a few years back that showed 10 pitchers holding a change, and they had 10 different grips. your standard 2 or 4 seam circle change is the most basic grip, but nobody in that article had that grip. I am a pitching junkie. It is my favorite part of the game. When I watch baseball I learn pitchers stuff and try to think along with them. I read a ton of articles on the subject during baseball season. I am by no means an expert or a coach, nor have I ever been a pitcher, but I try to learn as much as I can.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Elgin Slim

[ScottyDo]

What makes the changeup slow is the grip, rather than arm speed. You want the arm speed to be the same for both otherwise you tip your pitch. Every pitcher who throws one has their own grip for it.(as far as I know) There was an article on either ESPN or SI a few years back that showed 10 pitchers holding a change, and they had 10 different grips. your standard 2 or 4 seam circle change is the most basic grip, but nobody in that article had that grip. I am a pitching junkie. It is my favorite part of the game. When I watch baseball I learn pitchers stuff and try to think along with them. I read a ton of articles on the subject during baseball season. I am by no means an expert or a coach, nor have I ever been a pitcher, but I try to learn as much as I can.

I know, but the grip takes the speed off an arm motion that is identical to the fastball, which is why it's convincing and deceptive. So if it's the same arm motion that's slowed down due to injury, and you have a changeup grip how could it possibly go the same speed as his fastball? That would suggest a problem with his grip.

Edited March 28, 2013 by ScottyDo

[Jack Parkman]

I know, but the grip takes the speed off an arm motion that is identical to the fastball, which is why it's convincing and deceptive. So if it's the same arm motion that's slowed down due to injury, and you have a changeup grip how could it possibly go the same speed as his fastball? That would suggest a problem with his grip.

The grip for a changeup is meant to gain the 8-10 mph difference from the fastball. When a pitcher loses significant velocity, the gap between fastball and changeup speed is closed, because the grip was created for a healthy arm. (and the speed/mechanics of that arm) The grip basically fixes the speed of the ball coming out of that pitcher's hand to the ideal speed. When the pitcher's arm speed/mechanics changes, the grip can become useless due to the change in speed of the arm/mechanics. Most pitchers that I have seen have kept their change speed within 1-3 mph of their pre-injury speed.(I used to pay attention to this stuff a bunch a few years back, when I had more time to watch other teams) Take Peavy for example. Before and after he got injured his changeup speed was the same. He was lucky that he did not have to mess with the grip because he didn't lose more than 2-3 mph off of the fastball at top speed. Danks as of right now has lost 5+ mph off top speed. His grip probably needs to be reinvented if he does not gain his velocity back. I mentioned that in the original post. This tends to only be a problem with shoulder injuries rather than Tommy John though.

 

[Jake]

It probably has narrowed the gap, but I'm sure there's still a logical spread. It wouldn't shock me if the split had gone from 8-10 to 6-8 though

[Marty34]

Santana has probable re-tear of shoulder capsule

[ScottyDo]

The grip for a changeup is meant to gain the 8-10 mph difference from the fastball. When a pitcher loses significant velocity, the gap between fastball and changeup speed is closed, because the grip was created for a healthy arm. (and the speed/mechanics of that arm) The grip basically fixes the speed of the ball coming out of that pitcher's hand to the ideal speed. When the pitcher's arm speed/mechanics changes, the grip can become useless due to the change in speed of the arm/mechanics. Most pitchers that I have seen have kept their change speed within 1-3 mph of their pre-injury speed.(I used to pay attention to this stuff a bunch a few years back, when I had more time to watch other teams) Take Peavy for example. Before and after he got injured his changeup speed was the same. He was lucky that he did not have to mess with the grip because he didn't lose more than 2-3 mph off of the fastball at top speed. Danks as of right now has lost 5+ mph off top speed. His grip probably needs to be reinvented if he does not gain his velocity back. I mentioned that in the original post. This tends to only be a problem with shoulder injuries rather than Tommy John though.

Ok cool, I buy it

[Jack Parkman]

Ok cool, I buy it

Given that you are laughing, I really don't think you do. You have reason not to, because that was just the best explanation that I can give given the fact that I am no expert. I was speculating, and I should have said that. I honestly don't know why the fastball-change speed difference gets smaller after shoulder surgery, just that it does from observation. I think this would be a good question to ask Don Cooper on one of his shows on WSCR after Sunday games this season.

[ScottyDo]

Given that you are laughing, I really don't think you do. You have reason not to, because that was just the best explanation that I can give given the fact that I am no expert. I was speculating, and I should have said that. I honestly don't know why the fastball-change speed difference gets smaller after shoulder surgery, just that it does from observation. I think this would be a good question to ask Don Cooper on one of his shows on WSCR after Sunday games this season.

No I'm satisfied with the explanation, I am even less of an expert than you! It would definitely be interesting to hear from an actual pitching coach about the mechanics of it. Or even ptatc might know, with his rehab history.

[ptatc]

No I'm satisfied with the explanation, I am even less of an expert than you! It would definitely be interesting to hear from an actual pitching coach about the mechanics of it. Or even ptatc might know, with his rehab history.

The basic reason is that while the theory is to keep the arm at the exact same speed, that is really hard to do. Most of the drop in velocity comes from the different grip. However the arm speed does slow as well, hopefully not enough to tip the pitch. As long as the arm slot and mechanics stays the same the hitter doesn't have enough time to gauge the arm speed if it's only off a little. This is why the FB is slower in relation to the changeup and the difference isn't enough to fool hitters.

[flavum]

https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/319934624161734657

 

John Danks allowed a run over five innings and 77 pitches in an appearance at extended spring training.

[peteward]

John Danks article that I enjoyed reading a lot

[Kyyle23]

You read into this what you want but you WILL be banned for posting because well, I disagree with you ,and besides that, I have been elevated by reason of my numerous posts here to head of the trolls. And I know your IP address....Comcast.

 

you are complete nonsense

 

We dont consider you head of trolls, more like the head of completely paranoid people who think everyone is out to get them.

[witesoxfan]

You read into this what you want but you WILL be banned for posting because well, I disagree with you ,and besides that, I have been elevated by reason of my numerous posts here to head of the trolls. And I know your IP address....Comcast.

 

So in 2 weeks, he's velocity increased to 87-88 from 86. And you see a problem with that. Because BRUUUUUUUCE wrote an article about it. Why not just relax and enjoy the White Sox winning?

 

Oh, and you should check in your closet. And under your bed too.

 

 

[peteward]

you are complete nonsense

 

We dont consider you head of trolls, more like the head of completely paranoid people who think everyone is out to get them.

 

I stated that you have a grudge against me from the Yahoo White Sox forum

and that you seek to extract revenge for that on a forum where you have obtained some administrative privilege.

Your abuse of those privileges proves my point.

Edited April 7, 2013 by southside_hitman

[Kyyle23]

I stated that I knew who you were and know that you have a grudge from the Yahoo White Sox forum.

I guess your proved my point.

 

goodbye

 

Well, it was fun knowing hitman. It isnt often that you meet a crazy person on soxtalk. Well, maybe not.

[Jordan4life_2007]

goodbye

 

Well, it was fun knowing hitman. It isnt often that you meet a crazy person on soxtalk. Well, maybe not.

 

That dude was more paranoid than I was after I tried salvia once and refused to drink any beer because I thought it was acid. Like legit acid that melts your skin away. Not the other acid.

[Kyyle23]

That dude was more paranoid than I was after I tried salvia once and refused to drink any beer because I thought it was acid. Like legit acid that melts your skin away. Not the other acid.

 

LOL

 

He said I was Schiavone from the yahoo boards. If i was to troll him, I would have chosen an irish name. duh

[southsider2k5]

I stated that you have a grudge against me from the Yahoo White Sox forum

and that you seek to extract revenge for that on a forum where you have obtained some administrative privilege.

Your abuse of those privileges proves my point.

 

You are insane. You messaged me to try to tell me that he had multiple accounts, which he doesn't. All decisions that have been made here, have been made by the entire administrative team, and not just one person. I'm not sure where you got some of this stuff, but you are off of your rocker.

[Jake]

If an administrator has multiple accounts, I don't think it is worth trying to deal with anyway. ss2k5/kyyle/balta will just destroy you so you either play along or get out.

 

But see how "the administrators" always seem to agree with each other? Fishy...