White Sox Re-Sign Jake Peavy

[Dick Allen]

You know what makes Dunn more dangerous when walked? Better hitters behind him.

In a comeback performance, he had a pedestrian .333 OBP. And your comment is not unique regarding Adam Dunn. The 41 homers are great. He was far more productive than I thought he would be, but he tailed off after a quick start after the All Star break. Doesn't make as much contact as he used to when he used to flirt with 200 strikeouts a year, and shouldn't be batting 3rd.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Dick Allen

[IlliniKrush]

You're not paying any attention, but again, that's what you do.

No, I am, I read it clearly, until you tried to have it not be the same for Frank Thomas' walks, since he was a speedster.

 

It's baffling how walks aren't valuable. Just tell him to swing at anything for the HR, getting on base is overrated. You should be in someone's front office.

[Dick Allen]

No, I am, I read it clearly, until you tried to have it not be the same for Frank Thomas' walks, since he was a speedster.

 

It's baffling how walks aren't valuable. Just tell him to swing at anything for the HR, getting on base is overrated. You should be in someone's front office.

Frank wouldn't have been the hitter he was if he didn't take as many walks. I doubt you could say the same about Dunn.

 

Once again, I didn't say walks were useless, but it Adam Dunn's case, they aren't as valuable as guys who actually have the ability to score a lot of runs.

 

Funny you mentioned front office. I actually read an article where someone in some teams' front office was discussing this very subject and had the same view I have a few years ago. The player they were talking about was different. It was Jim Thome.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Dick Allen

[NorthSideSox72]

Funny you mentioned front office. I actually read an article where someone in some teams' front office was discussing this very subject and had the same view I have a few years ago. The player they were talking about was different. It was Jim Thome.

Wait a second... are you saying you were with Ozzie on that one? You didn't want Thome around because he was too slow, or not versatile? You thought Mark Kotsay was better than Jim Thome?

 

[hogan873]

Frank wouldn't have been the hitter he was if he didn't take as many walks. I doubt you could say the same about Dunn.

 

Once again, I didn't say walks were useless, but it Adam Dunn's case, they aren't as valuable as guys who actually have the ability to score a lot of runs.

 

Funny you mentioned front office. I actually read an article where someone in some teams' front office was discussing this very subject and had the same view I have a few years ago. The player they were talking about was different. It was Jim Thome.

I see your argument, but once Adam Dunn gets on base via a walk what can he do to get home other than wait for the hitters behind him to drive him home? He's not a base stealer. Many power hitters are not base stealers. You could put Rios in the 3-spot, but he's not going to get on base as much via the walk as Dunn. He may get on more often by getting a base hit, but he and Konerko are the guys that are responsible for getting the guys on base home. You put Dunn at #5, and now you are relying on a guy with a .210 average to bring home the guys on base. Now if you're talking about taking Dunn out of the equation all together (trade), you're losing a ton of power from the lineup.

 

And I may tend to agree that Dunn is not worth $15 million, but the Sox (or any team for that matter) would be hard pressed to find a guy who can hit 40+ HRs in a season for less than that. You want a guy who can hit .270+ and smack 40+ HRs? Be prepared to shell out a lot more than $15 million.

[Dick Allen]

Wait a second... are you saying you were with Ozzie on that one? You didn't want Thome around because he was too slow, or not versatile? You thought Mark Kotsay was better than Jim Thome?

Actually, I was one of Thome's biggest fans on this board. The same board that praises Dunn, but used to kill the far better Thome.

[Dick Allen]

I see your argument, but once Adam Dunn gets on base via a walk what can he do to get home other than wait for the hitters behind him to drive him home? He's not a base stealer. Many power hitters are not base stealers. You could put Rios in the 3-spot, but he's not going to get on base as much via the walk as Dunn. He may get on more often by getting a base hit, but he and Konerko are the guys that are responsible for getting the guys on base home. You put Dunn at #5, and now you are relying on a guy with a .210 average to bring home the guys on base. Now if you're talking about taking Dunn out of the equation all together (trade), you're losing a ton of power from the lineup.

 

And I may tend to agree that Dunn is not worth $15 million, but the Sox (or any team for that matter) would be hard pressed to find a guy who can hit 40+ HRs in a season for less than that. You want a guy who can hit .270+ and smack 40+ HRs? Be prepared to shell out a lot more than $15 million.

That's part of the point. A leadoff walk to Rickey Henderson is far more damaging than a leadoff walk to Paul Konerko despite what a couple people on this board think.

I love home runs and believe the Sox have to hit home runs to be successful. But, I don't think Dunn should bat 3rd. I know the Sox will have him on the roster for 2 more years, and think they will be far more productive moving him down. His walks haven't translated to runs during his career and as he gets older chances of that changing are shrinking.

Again, walks aren't a bad thing, but for Adam Dunn, they aren't as great as some make them out to be. I do realize they are better than outs.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Dick Allen

[cabiness42]

His walks haven't translated to runs during his career

 

That's not his fault. How f***ing thick is your head that you don't understand that???

 

If Adam Dunn was on the Yankees the past 10 years he would have scored twice as many runs from his walks.

[bigruss]

In a comeback performance, he had a pedestrian .333 OBP. And your comment is not unique regarding Adam Dunn. The 41 homers are great. He was far more productive than I thought he would be, but he tailed off after a quick start after the All Star break. Doesn't make as much contact as he used to when he used to flirt with 200 strikeouts a year, and shouldn't be batting 3rd.

Funny how when the production behind Dunn got worse (Konerko), he didn't perform as well.

[Dick Allen]

That's not his fault. How f***ing thick is your head that you don't understand that???

 

If Adam Dunn was on the Yankees the past 10 years he would have scored twice as many runs from his walks.

I doubt it. But if you have to have a $200 million payroll for him to score, it makes paying him $15 million even more silly.

[Dick Allen]

Funny how when the production behind Dunn got worse (Konerko), he didn't perform as well.

Blame Konerko for Adam Dunn. Wow. Rios was behind Dunn as well. Might as well blame him too. Konerko didn't seem to be a minor league hitter when he had Dunn behind him in 2011.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Dick Allen

[cabiness42]

I doubt it.

 

And that pretty much sums up your baseball knowledge right there, if you doubt that Dunn would have scored more runs in a better lineup.

[Dick Allen]

And that pretty much sums up your baseball knowledge right there, if you doubt that Dunn would have scored more runs in a better lineup.

You said double. That's what I answered to. I'm comfortable with my baseball knowledge at least vs. someone who comes up with that figure.

[cabiness42]

That's part of the point. A leadoff walk to Rickey Henderson is far more damaging than a leadoff walk to Paul Konerko despite what a couple people on this board think.

 

Well Rickey Henderson was a very unique player in that he has so much of a power threat that he got walked a lot.

 

Use Rajai Davis as a comparison. A single walk to Rajai Davis is more damaging than a single walk to Adam Dunn, but Rajai Davis had a .378 SLG so he wasn't a threat to do any damage with the bat and only got walked 29 times. And no matter how fast Rajai Davis is, 105 walks to Adam Dunn is more damaging than 29 walks to Rajai Davis. The cumulative effect of getting on base 105 more times and thus making 105 less outs far outweighs the fact that he "only" got himself to first base instead of getting a double or home run.

[bigruss]

Blame Konerko for Adam Dunn. Wow. Rios was behind Dunn as well. Might as well blame him too. Konerko didn't seem to be a minor league hitter when he had Dunn behind him in 2011.

You said walks were useless, well they are when players behind you are hitting like s***. Rios hit well, but he wasn't a superstar, he was a good hitter. Konerko for a long time was a bad hitter last season, and therefore Dunn's walks didn't look like anything great because the #4 hitter sucked.

 

[cabiness42]

You said double. That's what I answered to. I'm comfortable with my baseball knowledge at least vs. someone who comes up with that figure.

 

I said double the runs from his walks, not double runs total, and he easily does that in the Yankees lineup, and probably the Tigers and a few others as well.

 

[Dick Allen]

Well Rickey Henderson was a very unique player in that he has so much of a power threat that he got walked a lot.

 

Use Rajai Davis as a comparison. A single walk to Rajai Davis is more damaging than a single walk to Adam Dunn, but Rajai Davis had a .378 SLG so he wasn't a threat to do any damage with the bat and only got walked 29 times. And no matter how fast Rajai Davis is, 105 walks to Adam Dunn is more damaging than 29 walks to Rajai Davis. The cumulative effect of getting on base 105 more times and thus making 105 less outs far outweighs the fact that he "only" got himself to first base instead of getting a double or home run.

As I said, a walk to Adam Dunn is worth less than a walk to some other players.

[cabiness42]

As I said, a walk to Adam Dunn is worth less than a walk to some other players.

 

Yes, and Adam Dunn walked 105 times, so talking about the worth of one walk is pointless.

[Dick Allen]

You said walks were useless, well they are when players behind you are hitting like s***. Rios hit well, but he wasn't a superstar, he was a good hitter. Konerko for a long time was a bad hitter last season, and therefore Dunn's walks didn't look like anything great because the #4 hitter sucked.

Where did I write walks were useless?

 

Show me, and I'll quit the board.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, and Adam Dunn walked 105 times, so talking about the worth of one walk is pointless.

So you agree with me. Thanks.

[cabiness42]

So you agree with me. Thanks.

 

No, I don't agree with you. You clearly don't understand the value of walks.

[hogan873]

That's part of the point. A leadoff walk to Rickey Henderson is far more damaging than a leadoff walk to Paul Konerko despite what a couple people on this board think.

I love home runs and believe the Sox have to hit home runs to be successful. But, I don't think Dunn should bat 3rd. I know the Sox will have him on the roster for 2 more years, and think they will be far more productive moving him down. His walks haven't translated to runs during his career and as he gets older chances of that changing are shrinking.

Again, walks aren't a bad thing, but for Adam Dunn, they aren't as great as some make them out to be. I do realize they are better than outs.

Using an example from our team, of course you'd rather see De Aza on base to lead off an inning than Dunn because De Aza can steal and at a minimum aggravate the pitcher. I suppose you would even want to see Beckham or Alexei on base purely because of the speed of the runner.

 

So where would be a good spot for Dunn to hit? I'm not being sarcastic here, but if he's batting 5th or even 6th, you're relying on him and his low BA to drive in the guys who have gotten on base.

[Iwritecode]

Blame Konerko for Adam Dunn. Wow. Rios was behind Dunn as well. Might as well blame him too. Konerko didn't seem to be a minor league hitter when he had Dunn behind him in 2011.

 

If your argument is that his walks haven't translated to runs that's exactly who you should be blaming.

[Dick Allen]

If your argument is that his walks haven't translated to runs that's exactly who you should be blaming.

Really? If Konerko is directly behind him, for Dunn to score he has to homer or hit a long double (I'm taking triple out of the equation). Shouldn't it shake down the line up?

 

What's funny is if Dunn got back to his 2009 level in 2013, he legitimately could be a candidate for comeback player of the year 2 years in a row.

Edited November 2, 2012 by Dick Allen

[cabiness42]

Really? If Konerko is directly behind him, for Dunn to score he has to homer or hit a long double (I'm taking triple out of the equation). Shouldn't it shake down the line up?

 

Yes, and not only did Konerko/Rios not drive Dunn in much, they combined for 34 GIDP to eliminate him from the bases completely. As a slow guy, Dunn's style of walking and striking out a lot cuts down on those GIDP for him.