**2012 Election Day thread**

[Reddy]

You don't get it. At all.

lol

[Jenksismyhero]

They're not conclusive on light drinking, but heavy drinking is known to lead to FAS.

 

Well, I guess this gets down to what are we considering as heavy v. light.

 

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/902611-pregnan...y-says-research

 

Mothers-to-be should be able to down up to 12 alcoholic beverages a week knowing it will have no ill effect on their offspring before the age of five.

 

Either way it's probably best not to, just to be safe.

[SOXOBAMA]

There are reports that Clinton, Holder and Geithner will be leaving Obama cabinet..

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

You don't get it. At all.

I u

 

[NorthSideSox72]

There are reports that Clinton, Holder and Geithner will be leaving Obama cabinet..

Really? reports where?

 

[SOXOBAMA]

Really? reports where?

 

Fox News and the Daily Kos. I'm sure Hillary is leaving because of her 2016 Presidential run.

[StrangeSox]

The reactions to the election from the far-right, such as the Tea Party groups and Christian Coalition hardliners, are hilarious. They actually think Romney lost because he wasn't conservative enough. Complete denial of reality. It is almost sad to watch.

 

I can fully understand people's policy positions, even if they are further right than mine (by a little or a lot). But at some point, if the GOP wants to make changes, they need to deal with the obvious schism occurring in their party. They need to deal with the fact that the Tea Party types - who initially started as libertarian-like but quickly became just extra-angry right wingers - is falling back from being a party base to being an interest group. They can't have that be their platform keys anymore.

 

Conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed.

[Reddy]

There are reports that Clinton, Holder and Geithner will be leaving Obama cabinet..

we already knew about Hilary

[Jake]

I don't think pro-life folks always understand what pro-choice means to many people. I would call myself pro-choice...but it's not because I love the idea of aborted fetuses. I don't plan to go have a bunch of unprotected sex knowing I can just undo that later at Planned Parenthood.

 

It's an extremely tough question. What rights does an unborn fetus have? What moral value do we give it? It is not value-less nor is it sans rights, I suppose. However, it is not the same as me. It's not the same as a newborn. In many ways, newborns are not the same as me. We have all more or less agreed that children have fewer rights than adults. Why not fetuses having fewer rights than children? Yeah yeah, the right to "life" is a pretty hefty right. I know. I can't imagine that I'd ever allow myself to abort a child I conceived nor would I ever encourage someone else to do that, given some exceptions. If my wife or partner will die because of this child, I will do what I must to save her life.

 

But that's my personal take. I have no definitive, absolute moment when a fetus becomes too human to abort. The line is blurry. If it can't feel pain, is that okay? Does it have to have 26 chromosomes, or is 13 enough (no more masturbating!)? I can understand how a person may come up with a moment in which the fetus is too man-like to wish to abort it. As a society, I don't see us coming to an agreement on that. There is no absolute logical moment, though many latch on to conception. Therefore, this is not the government's business. This is a moral issue with no clear resolution (obviously not as clear of a shared opinion as me not being able to steal from a business, etc). Individuals will have to decide for themselves, save for boundaries that we all share -- most of us don't think that every period or non-sexual emission of sperm is denying a child's right to life. Likewise, an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy doesn't feel right to most of us. So we have some boundaries.

[cabiness42]

No they arent.

 

If a fetus dies due to miscarriage before 3 months, does it have a birth certificate? Does it have a social security number? Has it taken a breathe? Has it lived?

 

The answer is no. If you want to extend protection to unborn life, argue away. But at what point do we stop protecting something that isnt real? If you protect a fetus, why not sperm? Its the same theory, you are killing potential life. If we go down that road, shouldnt birth control be illegal, as it kills eggs, which could have been life?

 

But please spare me the "fetus are humans", because they arent. They are not deserving of the same rights as an actual living breathing person. Its insulting to those of us who actually are alive.

 

Birth certificates and social security numbers are issued by governments, which you are very quick to point out on many occasions are wrong on scientific issues.

 

I protect a fetus and not sperm because a fetus is a human being with a full set of chromosomes and a sperm is not. Perhaps you need to go back to 9th grade biology to understand the difference.

 

You can say "fetuses aren't humans because I said so" as much as you'd like, just like people can say "the earth is only 6000 years old because the Bible said so" as much as they like. Both are equally true.

 

[Jake]

As we talk about ideology, I figure I'd share one of the more thought provoking passages I've had the pleasure to read as a politics student.

 

How to be a Conservative-Liberal-Socialist

[cabiness42]

I don't think pro-life folks always understand what pro-choice means to many people. I would call myself pro-choice...but it's not because I love the idea of aborted fetuses. I don't plan to go have a bunch of unprotected sex knowing I can just undo that later at Planned Parenthood.

 

It's an extremely tough question. What rights does an unborn fetus have? What moral value do we give it? It is not value-less nor is it sans rights, I suppose. However, it is not the same as me. It's not the same as a newborn. In many ways, newborns are not the same as me. We have all more or less agreed that children have fewer rights than adults. Why not fetuses having fewer rights than children? Yeah yeah, the right to "life" is a pretty hefty right. I know. I can't imagine that I'd ever allow myself to abort a child I conceived nor would I ever encourage someone else to do that, given some exceptions. If my wife or partner will die because of this child, I will do what I must to save her life.

 

But that's my personal take. I have no definitive, absolute moment when a fetus becomes too human to abort. The line is blurry. If it can't feel pain, is that okay? Does it have to have 26 chromosomes, or is 13 enough (no more masturbating!)? I can understand how a person may come up with a moment in which the fetus is too man-like to wish to abort it. As a society, I don't see us coming to an agreement on that. There is no absolute logical moment, though many latch on to conception. Therefore, this is not the government's business. This is a moral issue with no clear resolution (obviously not as clear of a shared opinion as me not being able to steal from a business, etc). Individuals will have to decide for themselves, save for boundaries that we all share -- most of us don't think that every period or non-sexual emission of sperm is denying a child's right to life. Likewise, an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy doesn't feel right to most of us. So we have some boundaries.

 

So if a woman is two days from her due date and she says, "Oh, f*** it, I don't really want this kid", it's nobody's business to tell her she can't have a doctor crush its skull, right?

Edited November 8, 2012 by HickoryHuskers

[Reddy]

Birth certificates and social security numbers are issued by governments, which you are very quick to point out on many occasions are wrong on scientific issues.

 

I protect a fetus and not sperm because a fetus is a human being with a full set of chromosomes and a sperm is not. Perhaps you need to go back to 9th grade biology to understand the difference.

 

You can say "fetuses aren't humans because I said so" as much as you'd like, just like people can say "the earth is only 6000 years old because the Bible said so" as much as they like. Both are equally true.

 

fetuses AREN'T humans! just because they have 26 chromosomes doesn't make them human. A zygote is not a human. it's a blob of cells. literally. that's it. there are no organs, no bones, no skin, no nothing. no electrical impulses.

 

not that i actually think these are the same - but PHYSICALLY speaking, what's the difference between an abortion and an amputation of a limb?

 

[cabiness42]

There are reports that Clinton, Holder and Geithner will be leaving Obama cabinet..

 

I thought Hillary announced a long time ago that she was only serving one term?

 

 

[Reddy]

So if a woman is two days from her due date and she says, "Oh, f*** it, I don't really want this kid", it's nobody's business to tell her she can't have a doctor crush its skull, right?

that's actually the opposite of what he said.

 

aren't late-term abortions already illegal? in some places at least? i don't know the details here but i feel like i remember something about that.

[StrangeSox]

we already knew about Hilary

Geithner should have been gone years ago.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here's a good read looking at some exit poll data and comparing it to 2008:

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...ers_116106.html

[Jake]

So if a woman is two days from her due date and she says, "Oh, f*** it, I don't really want this kid", it's nobody's business to tell her she can't have a doctor crush its skull, right?

 

I'm pretty sure that I put in that post that there is a near consensus that after a particular point in the pregnancy, we are very nearly all in agreement that abortions are not appropriate, which is why no one is shouting and screaming about the laws that restrict late-term abortions.

[cabiness42]

fetuses AREN'T humans! just because they have 26 chromosomes doesn't make them human. A zygote is not a human. it's a blob of cells. literally. that's it. there are no organs, no bones, no skin, no nothing. no electrical impulses.

 

not that i actually think these are the same - but PHYSICALLY speaking, what's the difference between an abortion and an amputation of a limb?

 

A zygote isn't a fetus. A zygote is a stage of development before fetus. A fetus does have organs, bones, skin, a heart, brain, etc.

 

The difference between abortion and amputation is that abortion permanently terminates a beating human heart and functioning human brain while an amputation does not.

[Soxbadger]

I protect a fetus and not sperm because a fetus is a human being with a full set of chromosomes and a sperm is not. Perhaps you need to go back to 9th grade biology to understand the difference.

 

You can say "fetuses aren't humans because I said so" as much as you'd like, just like people can say "the earth is only 6000 years old because the Bible said so" as much as they like. Both are equally true.

 

Wow.

 

So this man http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news124, is not a human because he only has 44 chromosomes?

 

And I didnt say fetuses arent humans because I said so, I said they arent human because they havent been born and thus are not an actual independent entity.

 

You can argue that my definition is wrong, thats your opinion. If they are humans, like you say, then why can a mother drink and hurt the fetus, and the fetus has no rights against the mother? Why cant the fetus sue the mother for smoking?

 

 

[StrangeSox]

No abortions for anyone!

[Reddy]

A zygote isn't a fetus. A zygote is a stage of development before fetus. A fetus does have organs, bones, skin, a heart, brain, etc.

 

The difference between abortion and amputation is that abortion permanently terminates a beating human heart and functioning human brain while an amputation does not.

 

"In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age, which is the 9th week after fertilization."

 

so as long as you get an abortion before 9 weeks, you should be good right?

[Soxbadger]

A zygote isn't a fetus. A zygote is a stage of development before fetus. A fetus does have organs, bones, skin, a heart, brain, etc.

 

The difference between abortion and amputation is that abortion permanently terminates a beating human heart and functioning human brain while an amputation does not.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5484633_many-...-heartbeat.html

 

A fetus does not have organs, bones, skin, heart, brain, etc at conception.

 

The baby's heart starts forming at just four weeks gestation, which is approximately two weeks after fertilization. At five weeks gestation, the baby's heart divides into chambers and begins beating. At six weeks gestation, its heart is beating 100 to 160 times a minute, and blood is beginning to travel through its body.

 

Read more: How Many Weeks Before You Can Hear a Fetus Heartbeat? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5484633_many-...l#ixzz2BeswL3jR

 

So by your own argument, a fetus is not alive at conception.

[hogan873]

Fox News and the Daily Kos. I'm sure Hillary is leaving because of her 2016 Presidential run.

I read a couple articles yesterday that mentioned a few people leaving, including Hillary.

[cabiness42]

I'm pretty sure that I put in that post that there is a near consensus that after a particular point in the pregnancy, we are very nearly all in agreement that abortions are not appropriate, which is why no one is shouting and screaming about the laws that restrict late-term abortions.

 

Lots of people shouted and screamed about laws restricting late-term abortions. 34 Senators voted against it.

 

There isn't "a particular point in pregnancy" when a fetus undergoes some sudden change that transforms it from a blob of tissue into a human baby. That's why delineating any particular date is silly from a scientific standpoint.

 

Medically, there is no significant difference in development that makes an abortion at 12 weeks any different than one at 39 weeks.