**2012 Election Day thread**

[Reddy]

I understand that, though plant life and animal life are very different.

...why...

 

they're not different from human zygotes/embryos at the VERY least

Edited November 8, 2012 by Reddy

[cabiness42]

...why...

 

they're not different from human zygotes/embryos at the VERY least

 

Human zygotes are like some very primitive forms of animal life, but still very different than plant life, but I'm not arguing for protection at the zygote stage anyway.

[Reddy]

Human zygotes are like some very primitive forms of animal life, but still very different than plant life, but I'm not arguing for protection at the zygote stage anyway.

ok humor me for a second. what, would you say, are the differences between animals and humans?

[cabiness42]

ok humor me for a second. what, would you say, are the differences between animals and humans?

 

As you get farther and farther away from humans in the order/genus/class structure, the differences between humans and other animals are greater, but the baseline difference is DNA.

[Reddy]

As you get farther and farther away from humans in the order/genus/class structure, the differences between humans and other animals are greater, but the baseline difference is DNA.

ok... and it's ok to kill animals because they don't have the same DNA as us? how would that fare if we ran into an alien species with different DNA than us. would it be ok to kill them? is DNA the be all end all?

 

or better - as someone else mentioned - people with genetic diseases or mutations. People with down syndrome, etc - are they less than human because of different DNA?

Edited November 8, 2012 by Reddy

[StrangeSox]

I find that statement very troubling simply due to the fact that it is impossible for every sperm, or even any reasonable percentage of them, to ever be united with an egg.

 

IIRC something like 50% of impregnated eggs are naturally aborted by the body without the woman ever even knowing. That scientific knowledge leads me to the moral judgement that "life," meaning human life worthy of moral consideration, does not begin at conception but at some later stage.

[cabiness42]

ok... and it's ok to kill animals because they don't have the same DNA as us? how would that fare if we ran into an alien species with different DNA than us. would it be ok to kill them? is DNA the be all end all?

 

or better - as someone else mentioned - people with genetic diseases or mutations. People with down syndrome, etc - are they less than human because of different DNA?

 

Animals aren't human beings. We do have laws that regulate the killing of animals in certain circumstances, but other animals are not human beings.

 

As for people with down syndrome, etc., they still have HUMAN DNA. All humans have differing DNA (unless they are identical twins of course). No humans are "more" or less "human" than others.

[StrangeSox]

Specist!

 

Identical twins have different DNA, it's just really, really, really close.

[southsider2k5]

lol

If they are human beings, why can the mother drink and hurt them? Why cant DCFS force the mother to stop drinking or go to rehab?

 

You need to think about the consequences of your statements before you just puff about how wrong I am. Also please link me to all the scientists who conclusively state that at conception its "human". If youre going to rely on scientists, bring me some information to back up your claim. Its poor form to just say "Well everyone thinks this" and not prove it.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Because of the whole abortion debate, most everyone is afraid to step into everything before birth.

[StrangeSox]

Because of the whole abortion debate, most everyone is afraid to step into everything before birth.

 

Except for those people that passed dozens of bills around the country restricting abortions in the past two years. They were okay with stepping into it.

[southsider2k5]

Physical development is a continuum of biological processes. What is or isn't a human being is a moral question, not a scientific one. Scientific knowledge can help form that opinion, but scientific findings cannot actually say "this is a human being, this isn't." People must make moral judgements as to what constitutes a human and use medical knowledge to gauge that. Some may say it's a beating heart, others may say it's an active brain with brain waves. The difference between those two measures isn't a scientific question.

 

That's garbage. We define life on other planets, yet we can't define it for our own species?

[StrangeSox]

Time for the GOP to rethink abortion politics

 

I thought this was insightful.

 

How, then, might Todd Akin or Richard Mourdock have answered that question about rape and pregnancy if not hogtied by the right-to-life movement to find some way to defend an all-encompassing abortion ban? Maybe like this:

 

"Rape is an unspeakable evil, and I cannot imagine the anguish of a woman who finds herself pregnant as a result of being raped. Now, do I believe the child conceived as a result or rape is loved and valued by God? Yes. Do I believe that child deserves death? No. Any woman in that circumstance who would choose to bear that child and give birth would be a hero in my eyes, and should be a hero in everyone's eyes. But as far as the law is concerned, there is no way we will ever see a political consensus in favor of a law that would force such a woman to make that choice, and I have no intention of trying to create one."

[Reddy]

Animals aren't human beings. We do have laws that regulate the killing of animals in certain circumstances, but other animals are not human beings.

 

As for people with down syndrome, etc., they still have HUMAN DNA. All humans have differing DNA (unless they are identical twins of course). No humans are "more" or less "human" than others.

 

fine. then i'll refer you to my alien question.

 

 

but seriously.

[cabiness42]

No, pro-life politicians don't need to back down from wanting abortion to be outlawed. They need to leave God out of it and they need to recognize that passing laws with exceptions for rape/incest are better than not getting laws passed at all.

[StrangeSox]

That's garbage. We define life on other planets, yet we can't define it for our own species?

 

We have rough categories of "life" and "non-life" and break things down further from there. All of these categories are man-made and really just convenient ways for us to classify things for our own understanding. We're drawing a map with definitions, not defining the terrain.

 

Saying that a zygote is "life" is one thing, though I don't know if that's even a consensus view. But that isn't the only thing meant by "life begins at conception" rhetoric in the abortion discussion. That phrase carries a much more significant moral argument that human life worthy of moral protections and considerations begins at conception. There isn't a scientific question there. There's no hypothesis to test.

[cabiness42]

fine. then i'll refer you to my alien question.

 

If an alien life form is advanced enough to find their way here, then they are probably going to dictate to us how we deal with them and not vice versa.

[Reddy]

We have rough categories of "life" and "non-life" and break things down further from there. All of these categories are man-made and really just convenient ways for us to classify things for our own understanding. We're drawing a map with definitions, not defining the terrain.

 

Saying that a zygote is "life" is one thing, though I don't know if that's even a consensus view. But that isn't the only thing meant by "life begins at conception" rhetoric in the abortion discussion. That phrase carries a much more significant moral argument that human life worthy of moral protections and considerations begins at conception. There isn't a scientific question there. There's no hypothesis to test.

well, to be fair, single celled organisms ARE considered life... so a zygote is too. it's just not a person, which is an organism with synaptic brain function that can reason and has free will.

[Reddy]

If an alien life form is advanced enough to find their way here, then they are probably going to dictate to us how we deal with them and not vice versa.

*sigh* sidestepping the question. yeah it's a hypothetical, but just because something has different DNA doesn't INHERENTLY make it a lesser life form

[StrangeSox]

well, to be fair, single celled organisms ARE considered life... so a zygote is too. it's just not a person, which is an organism with synaptic brain function that can reason and has free will.

An unfertilized egg is a single-cell organic thing, but I don't think it's considered life.

[Reddy]

An unfertilized egg is a single-cell organic thing, but I don't think it's considered life.

now we're getting into the semantics of what the word LIFE means. to me, organism and life mean the same thing.

[cabiness42]

*sigh* sidestepping the question. yeah it's a hypothetical, but just because something has different DNA doesn't INHERENTLY make it a lesser life form

 

Right, but if anything, that viewpoint moves towards protection for the fetus and not away from it.

 

[Reddy]

Right, but if anything, that viewpoint moves towards protection for the fetus and not away from it.

ahhh no it doesn't, because if the distinction isn't based on DNA, then on what IS it based?

[cabiness42]

now we're getting into the semantics of what the word LIFE means. to me, organism and life mean the same thing.

 

A sperm or an egg are not organisms though--they don't have a complete set of DNA. A zygote does. There is a very clear biological distinction between separate sperm/egg cells and a joined zygote.

[StrangeSox]

now we're getting into the semantics of what the word LIFE means. to me, organism and life mean the same thing.

Well I used the highly technical term "organic thing" instead of organism for a reason! I don't think an egg is classified any different than a red blood cell. Yeah, it's organic matter, but it's not a living organism.

[iamshack]

Is it fair to say that human beings are very easily capable of partaking in reproductive processes and that it is necessary that we all take this capability extremely seriously, and leave it at that?