**2012 Election Day thread**

[StrangeSox]

The CBO looked into this a few years ago:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impa...s_against_Costs

During 2007, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reviewed 29 reports published over 15 years on the impact of unauthorized immigrants on the budgets of state and local governments. While cautioning that the reports are not a suitable basis for developing an aggregate national effect across all states, they concluded that:[29]

 

State and local governments incur costs for providing services to unauthorized immigrants and have limited options for avoiding or minimizing those costs;

 

The amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions;

 

The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, although the impact is most likely modest; and

 

Federal aid programs offer resources to state and local governments that provide services to unauthorized immigrants, but those funds do not fully cover the costs incurred by those governments.

[mr_genius]

Except that he's completely wrong. People who come here legally, typically have jobs to come to, or are family with those that do. So this idea that they are coming here and getting paid to live is ridiculous.

 

Buchanan? Seriously? That guy is a clown.

 

Buchanan is correct.

[NorthSideSox72]

Undocumented immigrants working under fake SSN's are paying payroll taxes but can't ever see the benefits of those programs. They also pay sales taxes, gas taxes, tolls, etc.

Again, as I said, they contribute. Not sure why you and Reddy keep trying to change the topic to make it seem like I was saying something else. What I was pointing out, again, was that this idea that legal immigrants are glomming off the government and that is why the GOP lost... is silly for so many reasons. Once of which is the one I stated - they generally come here with jobs. That isn't even to mention that it takes them 5-10 years or more to even become citizens, and can't vote in the meantime. It is an idiotic premise with no foundation in reality.

 

[StrangeSox]

I wasn't trying to change the topic, I was just adding a bit of info.

[NorthSideSox72]

I'm just wondering... has anyone in this forum ever actually seen the process up close, to get visas, green cards and eventually citizenship in the US? Because I have. I've had to deal with the lawyers and agencies to shuffle people who worked for me through the hoops. If they aren't enrolled full time in school or (more often) have a full time job, for more than a few weeks, the visa is terminated. Buchanan is delusional.

 

 

[mr_genius]

Once of which is the one I stated - they generally come here with jobs.

 

what kind of jobs? maybe train unemployed and under employed workers to do those.

[NorthSideSox72]

what kind of jobs? maybe train unemployed and under employed workers to do those.

That is another discussion, and I actually agree with you there. I can tell you from experience there are already some barriers set up to encourage that, but they aren't terribly effective. I agree with you that we should probably look to do better with training and filling jobs internally in the US.

 

[mr_genius]

I'm just wondering... has anyone in this forum ever actually seen the process up close, to get visas, green cards and eventually citizenship in the US? Because I have. I've had to deal with the lawyers and agencies to shuffle people who worked for me through the hoops.

 

I have, many many times. Applied for H-1bs and L1s when I worked for a big blue chip tech firm that did tons of outsourcing. It was easy, every application was approved by USCIS and the DOL. Of course, no green cards for them. The point was for them to get trained and take the job to India or something. I also want to state that I don't agree with using immigration as weapon against workers, but when I was doing it I was a noob and didn't fully comprehend how s***ty it was to local workers. So I have changed my ways.

 

Anyways, I think there is a massive back log for green cards to countries like India and China because each country only gets a certain amount.

 

What is your experience?

Edited November 15, 2012 by mr_genius

[Jake]

I'd say that Pat Buchanan does adequately sum up why Republicans aren't getting the minority vote, just not in the way he intended.

 

I agree. He makes the perfect argument as to why the Republicans are wrong on these issues -- and not just why they aren't getting votes. The premise of "equal opportunity" is that systematically disadvantaged groups, particularly immigrants and the group of people that we enslaved then segregated for 200 years, will get assistance from the system that oppressed them to rise out of being oppressed. They're not "takers," they just want a chance. When you have such huge portions of a race that are poor by the fault of your government, it is the responsibility of that government to help them and particularly to help them out of poverty. The vast majority of these people are willing to work to change their situation so getting preached at by the Republicans about how they are either "takers" or simply need to work hard and everything will be better doesn't resonate -- they DO try. I would even contest that we contribute to the culture of non-effort as well by providing so little to get these people out of poverty. If the school sucks, the neighborhood sucks, there is no money, no medical care, no positive influence at all...where is the impetus to hope? If you've never seen a successful person, you may be skeptical that it is possible to be one. This is why there has been measurable success in public housing initiatives that don't simply stuff a building/neighborhood with poor people and instead integrate poor into middle and higher income areas.

 

Unfortunately, neither party will really address the war on drugs but the R party has become synonymous with it. When your dad or your brother or whomever you know is a fine human being is locked up or otherwise impeded due to what should be minor drug charges, you're probably going to vote for whoever will change that. More importantly, the fact that we're doing it is just yet another factor that puts roadblocks in the way of a successful generation of people and of course is another factor that leads to systematic racial disadvantage. Poor people tend to go to prison for drugs. We have made minority groups disproportionately poor. Now you have prison populations that hold more black men than we ever enslaved and an overall prison population that exceeds the height of Stalin's prison era. Not to mention all this s*** is a waste of money.

[Marty34]

If you've never seen a successful person, you may be skeptical that it is possible to be one. This is why there has been measurable success in public housing initiatives that don't simply stuff a building/neighborhood with poor people and instead integrate poor into middle and higher income areas.

 

Whatever success there has been has come at a price. Talk to people who lived in these neighborhoods before they were integrated and they rue that day.

[StrangeSox]

Is that a Pat Buchanan quote from the 60's?

[NorthSideSox72]

I have, many many times. Applied for H-1bs and L1s when I worked for a big blue chip tech firm that did tons of outsourcing. It was easy, every application was approved by USCIS and the DOL. Of course, no green cards for them. The point was for them to get trained and take the job to India or something. I also want to state that I don't agree with using immigration as weapon against workers, but when I was doing it I was a noob and didn't fully comprehend how s***ty it was to local workers. So I have changed my ways.

 

Anyways, I think there is a massive back log for green cards to countries like India and China because each country only gets a certain amount.

 

What is your experience?

I've worked at a couple firms where some people who worked directly for me (or on other teams who I worked with) that vame over on visas. Some were student visas, then had to get work in X amount of weeks to stay in the country. Others came over specifically for the job. Some were trying to get green cards, either via work and stay, or via marriage. For India and China, even after working H1B or other visa for a few years, even if they could get company sponsored or married for green cards, the list is YEARS long, as you said. Some other countries I dealt with, like Turkey and Russia, weren't as long.

 

And I have nothing against those folks either - they worked their tails off, almost without exception. But I agree with you tht the application approval process was nothing more than hoops, it likely doesn't sift out much. You need to show them you are hiring this person (or re-hiring) because you cannot find a US citizen with those skill sets. So, you write the job description around that person's skill set. That is the green card process.

 

[Jake]

Whatever success there has been has come at a price. Talk to people who lived in these neighborhoods before they were integrated and they rue that day.

 

I need more elaboration. Are you talking about neighborhoods that have become completely low-income over time (like the one my mother was raised in) or is this just "When I see a black man, I see my property value dropping"

[StrangeSox]

I might be something along the lines of what was discussed in this thread

[Marty34]

I need more elaboration. Are you talking about neighborhoods that have become completely low-income over time (like the one my mother was raised in) or is this just "When I see a black man, I see my property value dropping"

 

Lower middle-class black neighborhoods. From the long-time residents of these neighborhoods that I have spoken to there's a tremendous amount of disappointment and anger over what section 8 has done to their area.

[StrangeSox]

you can check out this recent study on the impact of relocation:

 

http://www.urban.org/publications/412523.html

 

Overall, our findings show that a substantial majority of neighborhoods in both cities were able to absorb public housing relocation voucher households without any adverse effect on neighborhood conditions.

[flippedoutpunk]

This is why there has been measurable success in public housing initiatives that don't simply stuff a building/neighborhood with poor people and instead integrate poor into middle and higher income areas.

 

Excuse my ignorance but are there really programs like that? That sounds like a cool idea, almost like reverse gentrification. My family and I have been displaced twice while living in Chicago, first while living in Roscoe Village, and second living in Logan Square, the property taxes skyrocketed to unrealistic amounts and we were forced to take whatever money they offered and run with it (to a lower income community).

[CrimsonWeltall]

I've worked at a couple firms where some people who worked directly for me (or on other teams who I worked with) that vame over on visas. Some were student visas, then had to get work in X amount of weeks to stay in the country. Others came over specifically for the job. Some were trying to get green cards, either via work and stay, or via marriage. For India and China, even after working H1B or other visa for a few years, even if they could get company sponsored or married for green cards, the list is YEARS long, as you said.

 

Same. I had a couple software developer coworkers from China who were here on work visas. It took them 7+ years to get citizenship. At one point, the company didn't fill out one piece of visa paperwork correctly and one of the guys was nearly deported.

[StrangeSox]

That's the policy they pursued when they started relocating people out of the large public housing projects. I googled up this article from last year:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/4831798...rt-details.html

[StrangeSox]

Same. I had a couple software developer coworkers from China who were here on work visas. It took them 7+ years to get citizenship. At one point, the company didn't fill out one piece of visa paperwork correctly and one of the guys was nearly deported.

 

One of my co-workers has been here since the 80's. The country he came from hasn't existed in about 20 years. He's having a hell of a time trying to get his citizenship.

[mr_genius]

One of my co-workers has been here since the 80's. The country he came from hasn't existed in about 20 years. He's having a hell of a time trying to get his citizenship.

 

does he have citizenship to any country?

[StrangeSox]

I'm actually not sure how that works.

[Jake]

Excuse my ignorance but are there really programs like that? That sounds like a cool idea, almost like reverse gentrification. My family and I have been displaced twice while living in Chicago, first while living in Roscoe Village, and second living in Logan Square, the property taxes skyrocketed to unrealistic amounts and we were forced to take whatever money they offered and run with it (to a lower income community).

 

Yep, they haven't been mainstreamed yet but they've been successful according to current research. Most significant effects are in children, who are much less likely to end up in jail, drop out, etc

[StrangeSox]

Increasing polarization of the Senate:

 

 

Both sides have gotten more polarized, but moderate Republicans have pretty much disappeared.

[Jake]

Increasing polarization of the Senate:

 

 

Both sides have gotten more polarized, but moderate Republicans have pretty much disappeared.

 

There a lot of reasons for that. I could send you a book about it, I spent a whole summer studying this phenomenon