southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:30 PM) You most likely won't get good, young MLB starters for those guys. It'd be better to spread that money around. It is also a s***-ton of deals to try to make while simultaneously trying to sign Hamilton. Can anyone think of a team that actually pulled off an off season where they dumped multiple high dollar players in deals and then proceeded to bring in the top name on the market? Even if you discount the chances of the White Sox doing something like this, the reality of that many deals having to fall into place to pull of a signing like this just strikes me as incredibly unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) If you can get a good young 3B and or a C in the trades? Yes. The teams RH heavy, trading in Rios for Hamilton changes that. Hamilton also had an OPS 100 points higher than Rios, so theres that. Again, you're not getting top young MLB talent for those guys. You could get some younger prospects, or maybe a decent cheap bullpen piece, but those guys with their salaries just aren't worth that much (hence why fans want to trade them). Unless the Sox dish out tons of cash with those guys, they're going to get limited returns. And if they do that then suddenly that cash you saved isn't nearly as much as you thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:16 PM) It does, but it hasn't happened. He's a changed, "God fearing" man. Unless they changed things since his book was written, if he fails a test he's gone from baseball period. They could have changed it though since he's been clean for so long but I doubt it. It's a chance worth taking for one of the best hitters in baseball if you ask me. He's still gonna have monster years the next 2 years with PK and Dunn still on the team. Dude, it's also a book. Just because it's on paper doesn't make it completely true. They can write as much as they want about how he's changed, but the fact is he's relapsed before and the odds are it's going to happen again. Who knows how bad the next relapse is going to be, it's a huge freakin' risk on money that would be best spent elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:37 PM) If you can get a good young 3B and or a C in the trades? Yes. The teams RH heavy, trading in Rios for Hamilton changes that. Hamilton also had an OPS 100 points higher than Rios, so theres that. With the salaries that all four of these guys have, I don't think it is realistic to expect to get a starting 3B AND a starting C for players that are either at, or above the contracts that they would get as free agents, if they were out on the market today. -Dunn has 2 years $30 million left, Ortiz just got 2/26 on the open market, so Dunn is pretty well maxed out. Who out there would give a starting player, PLUS wanting to pay that contract? -Thornton at $5.5 million this year is a lot of money. He does have a $6 million option for next year, with a $1 million buyout, so realistically he is a 1 year $6.5 million player this year. Again, at max dollars or above. No one is going to give a starting 3B or C for Matt Thornton. -Floyd at $9.5 million for one year might actually bring you something back. His numbers aren't overly impressive, but having a workhorse in the middle of the rotation is worth something now a days. Maybe he is in the area of a 10-12 million pitcher on the open market. But is he good enough to get you a ready made 3B or C starter? Eh, I doubt it. We are probably talking decent (Say second level for the top player received, along with a couple of C rated guys) prospects. Rios is coming off of a career best year, previously followed by one of the worst seasons in his career. He has $25 million due over the next two years, plus a team option for $13.5m in 2015, or a million buyout. He has a reputation as a bad attitude and seems to be pretty fragile. Is he a guy you would trade a young/cheap starter for, in view of his contract and history? I'm not seeing it. I am not seeing the same optimism that you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) Dude, it's also a book. Just because it's on paper doesn't make it completely true. They can write as much as they want about how he's changed, but the fact is he's relapsed before and the odds are it's going to happen again. Who knows how bad the next relapse is going to be, it's a huge freakin' risk on money that would be best spent elsewhere. I don't really worry about him relapsing...to me, it's the same risk it is with any other star of this caliber...it generally is not worth it to spend 20-25% of your payroll on one player. When you combine that with the fact that you're usually getting a player who is in the middle of his prime but will be exiting it shortly, it doesn't make a ton of sense to sign someone to a long-term megamillions type deal. Pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:43 PM) Again, you're not getting top young MLB talent for those guys. You could get some younger prospects, or maybe a decent cheap bullpen piece, but those guys with their salaries just aren't worth that much (hence why fans want to trade them). Unless the Sox dish out tons of cash with those guys, they're going to get limited returns. And if they do that then suddenly that cash you saved isn't nearly as much as you thought. Isn't there a ton of teams with a lot of spending money this year? Something about TV deals? The FA market is also really shallow so teams are going to be exploring trades. I saw where Seattle is in on Hamilton, my post suggested trading them Alex in return for Seager. If you add Josh's LH bat I dont think youre limited to grabbing a LH bat a 3B(Though they were never really limited to on in the first place, I just would have preferred one) so that opens the door for any 3B out there. Edited November 12, 2012 by 2nd_city_saint787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:46 PM) Dude, it's also a book. Just because it's on paper doesn't make it completely true. They can write as much as they want about how he's changed, but the fact is he's relapsed before and the odds are it's going to happen again. Who knows how bad the next relapse is going to be, it's a huge freakin' risk on money that would be best spent elsewhere. Exactly. When he slipped up in 2009 and was photographed shirtless and drunk in a bar with a bunch of women who were'r his wife, asking where he could get cocaine, he was quoted the next day he would never drink again because of what it led to. He has had drinks since. He is a great player but not a guy you want to throw all that money at. The other thing is the guy misses a lot of games. He misses only 14 this year, like that is something spectacular.Moving forward, you would have to figure he would miss 30-40 games a year the next 5 years, at the very least based on his history and his getting older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) With the salaries that all four of these guys have, I don't think it is realistic to expect to get a starting 3B AND a starting C for players that are either at, or above the contracts that they would get as free agents, if they were out on the market today. -Dunn has 2 years $30 million left, Ortiz just got 2/26 on the open market, so Dunn is pretty well maxed out. Who out there would give a starting player, PLUS wanting to pay that contract? -Thornton at $5.5 million this year is a lot of money. He does have a $6 million option for next year, with a $1 million buyout, so realistically he is a 1 year $6.5 million player this year. Again, at max dollars or above. No one is going to give a starting 3B or C for Matt Thornton. -Floyd at $9.5 million for one year might actually bring you something back. His numbers aren't overly impressive, but having a workhorse in the middle of the rotation is worth something now a days. Maybe he is in the area of a 10-12 million pitcher on the open market. But is he good enough to get you a ready made 3B or C starter? Eh, I doubt it. We are probably talking decent (Say second level for the top player received, along with a couple of C rated guys) prospects. Rios is coming off of a career best year, previously followed by one of the worst seasons in his career. He has $25 million due over the next two years, plus a team option for $13.5m in 2015, or a million buyout. He has a reputation as a bad attitude and seems to be pretty fragile. Is he a guy you would trade a young/cheap starter for, in view of his contract and history? I'm not seeing it. I am not seeing the same optimism that you are. How are the Sox planning on getting a 3B anyway? There's a trade out there and I doubt they add a high salary guy. I also said 3B and/or C. If they can't get a C out of the deal so be it, Tyler Flowers your table is ready. This convos all for fun though. IMO its not wildly unrealistic but it won't happen Edited November 12, 2012 by 2nd_city_saint787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:56 PM) Isn't there a ton of teams with a lot of spending money this year? Something about TV deals? The FA market is also really shallow so teams are going to be exploring trades. I saw where Seattle is in on Hamilton, my post suggested trading them Alex in return for Seager. If you add Josh's LH bat I dont think youre limited to grabbing a LH bat a 3B(Though they were never really limited to on in the first place, I just would have preferred one) so that opens the door for any 3B out there. Teams may be willing to take on the full contract, but you're not getting a young, starter in those deals. It just isn't going to happen as much as we may want it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:56 PM) Exactly. When he slipped up in 2009 and was photographed shirtless and drunk in a bar with a bunch of women who were'r his wife, asking where he could get cocaine, he was quoted the next day he would never drink again because of what it led to. He has had drinks since. He is a great player but not a guy you want to throw all that money at. The other thing is the guy misses a lot of games. He misses only 14 this year, like that is something spectacular.Moving forward, you would have to figure he would miss 30-40 games a year the next 5 years, at the very least based on his history and his getting older. Was the bold part confirmed? I don't know how you get that from a picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:08 PM) Teams may be willing to take on the full contract, but you're not getting a young, starter in those deals. It just isn't going to happen as much as we may want it too. Thats where the 3 way deal Hahn has talked about comes in. Trade Rios to a team willing to take on his contract, get some good prospects and flip them to a 3rd team with 1 or 2 more of our guys for a young cheap 3B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) Thats where the 3 way deal Hahn has talked about comes in. Trade Rios to a team willing to take on his contract, get some good prospects and flip them to a 3rd team with 1 or 2 more of our guys for a young cheap 3B. or just not sign hamilton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:17 PM) or just not sign hamilton. Ya it won't happen but its just fun offseason chatter for me, a supporter of Ham-Bone. It's a pretty good idea to me though. Edited November 12, 2012 by 2nd_city_saint787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) How are the Sox planning on getting a 3B anyway? There's a trade out there and I doubt they add a high salary guy. I also said 3B and/or C. If they can't get a C out of the deal so be it, Tyler Flowers your table is ready. This convos all for fun though. IMO its not wildly unrealistic but it won't happen I'm not a real believer that we are going to find anything more than a stop gap at 3B for 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) Thats where the 3 way deal Hahn has talked about comes in. Trade Rios to a team willing to take on his contract, get some good prospects and flip them to a 3rd team with 1 or 2 more of our guys for a young cheap 3B. Those deals are very difficult to put together, let alone multiple times in the same off-season. I still don't know that you would be getting very much for these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) Those deals are very difficult to put together, let alone multiple times in the same off-season. I still don't know that you would be getting very much for these guys. It's 3 guys, everyone already expects Gavin to be traded, everyone already wants Matt traded, and I wouldn't be surprised if some team out there would take Alex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:36 PM) It's 3 guys, everyone already expects Gavin to be traded, everyone already wants Matt traded, and I wouldn't be surprised if some team out there would take Alex. I already outlined the comparison of what they would be worth on the open market. If you can tell me which teams out there would find those guys valued enough to take on their entire contract, plus send either high end prospects, or young cost controlled starters, back to the Sox for them, I'd lbuy into this being a viable plan. But when a plan needs three way deals to make it work, it doesn't feel very realistic to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:40 PM) I already outlined the comparison of what they would be worth on the open market. If you can tell me which teams out there would find those guys valued enough to take on their entire contract, plus send either high end prospects, or young cost controlled starters, back to the Sox for them, I'd lbuy into this being a viable plan. But when a plan needs three way deals to make it work, it doesn't feel very realistic to me. Any team in on Josh Hamilton would be in on Rios more than likely. Everyone seems to believe Gavin will be traded so he has to have some value, and I'm sure there are teams out there that need a LH set up guy. All they need is a 3B out of those 3 guys, i dont care is they get little to nothing else. For the next 2 years having a middle of a lineup that includes Hamilton, PK, and Dunn, makes the White sox title contenders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 If the Sox were looking for salary relief, two executives say that trading Alex Rios and the $26MM remaining on his contract will be much easier after Rios' strong 2012 season, though neither exec is certain that Rios is available. Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/alejandro-de...fjCW0Gp0CSVK.99 Two executives seem to believe Rios can be traded for salary relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:59 PM) Two executives seem to believe Rios can be traded for salary relief. "traded for salary relief" is baseball speak for "not getting anybody who will help you in 2013...or maybe ever". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Two executives seem to believe Rios can be traded for salary relief. Sox aren't trading Rios for "salary relief". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:02 PM) "traded for salary relief" is baseball speak for "not getting anybody who will help you in 2013...or maybe ever". They should be able to get a good piece or 2 out of the trade. Rios contract is only on the books for 2 more years so its not a terrible contract to unload. If they don't get someone for 2013 so be it, if they can find a deal using Gavins under market value contract for a 3B then you're still better off for the next 2 years IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewokpelts Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:53 PM) Any team in on Josh Hamilton would be in on Rios more than likely. Everyone seems to believe Gavin will be traded so he has to have some value, and I'm sure there are teams out there that need a LH set up guy. All they need is a 3B out of those 3 guys, i dont care is they get little to nothing else. For the next 2 years having a middle of a lineup that includes Hamilton, PK, and Dunn, makes the White sox title contenders then why SIGN Hamilton to a deal that will kill the team for 4-5 years when you can just KEEP Rios? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 02:53 PM) Any team in on Josh Hamilton would be in on Rios more than likely. Everyone seems to believe Gavin will be traded so he has to have some value, and I'm sure there are teams out there that need a LH set up guy. All they need is a 3B out of those 3 guys, i dont care is they get little to nothing else. For the next 2 years having a middle of a lineup that includes Hamilton, PK, and Dunn, makes the White sox title contenders Josh Hamilton just had a 4.4 WAR season. Alex Rios just had a 4.3 WAR season. Hamilton is better, but much more likely to spend significant time on the DL. Hamilton will cost double what Rios costs, meaning you won't be able to get a 3B. I would rather have Hamilton if everything is equal, but I don't think the upgrade is even close to enough to justify the cost of not upgrading elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (ewokpelts @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:21 PM) then why SIGN Hamilton to a deal that will kill the team for 4-5 years when you can just KEEP Rios? In the scenario I'm presenting Rios, who I truly believe is a good trade chip, would be traded for a 3B. Whether it be in a round about way or straight up. So swapping Rios for Hamilton= getting a quality 3B, adding a LH bat to the Sox RH heavy lineup, and an upgrade of 100 OPS points. Edited November 12, 2012 by 2nd_city_saint787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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