southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:21 PM) They should be able to get a good piece or 2 out of the trade. Rios contract is only on the books for 2 more years so its not a terrible contract to unload. If they don't get someone for 2013 so be it, if they can find a deal using Gavins under market value contract for a 3B then you're still better off for the next 2 years IMO. Salary relief doesn't mean good pieces, it means a team is willing to pick him up for just his salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:27 PM) In the scenario I'm presenting Rios, who I truly believe is a good trade chip, would be traded for a 3B. Whether it be in a round about way or straight up. So swapping Rios for Hamilton= getting a quality 3B, adding a LH bat to the Sox RH heavy lineup, and an upgrade of 100 OPS points. The problem with Rios' contract isn't that it's an albatross, it is that it is close to fair market value. The only time you get a good return for a guy is when there is surplus value in his contract, which is why teams often pick up a significant portion of these types of contracts in a trade -- to create surplus value for the team that gets him. I'm sure the Sox could get a good piece or two if they picked up, say, half of Rios' contract. But now you're talking about taking on $6m there and then paying Hamilton something like $22m on top of that. All of a sudden you're paying $28m instead of $12m and adding maybe one win. At that point, why not just re-sign Youkilis for less and spend the money saved elsewhere? You'd have to find someone willing to give up a 3B that's better than Youkilis and you'd still be spending more money -- I just can't think of anyone who will send us that kind of 3B for Rios at half price. Edited November 12, 2012 by Eminor3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:27 PM) Salary relief doesn't mean good pieces, it means a team is willing to pick him up for just his salary. Vernon Wells was traded for good pieces and his contract was leaps and bounds worse than Alex Rios contract. Toronto saved 80 mill in that deal, Rios only has 25 mill left on his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:36 PM) Vernon Wells was traded for good pieces and his contract was leaps and bounds worse than Alex Rios contract. Toronto saved 80 mill in that deal, Rios only has 25 mill left on his contract. Yeah, but that's widely heralded as possibly the worst trade of all-time. It doesn't make sense to use that to set expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:36 PM) Vernon Wells was traded for good pieces and his contract was leaps and bounds worse than Alex Rios contract. Toronto saved 80 mill in that deal, Rios only has 25 mill left on his contract. On top of the lesson that trade gives us, Vernon Wells had no where near the reputation as mentally weak that Rios has. Also none of Wells worst years prior to his dealing to Anaheim were anywhere near what Rios had in 2011. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 While we would probably wheel and deal to dump some salary, I think the only way we get Hamilton is if we're bluffing a bit in terms of how much money we have. If I'm the White Sox, Hamilton or no, I'm probably going to claim I'm up against salary restraints. It gives you some bargaining room with free agents. I'd imagine just about everybody is telling FAs and the media that they're strapped for cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Yeah, at the end of the day, we just don't have enough to gain from Hamilton to blow that kind of money. If we had a black hole in RF/LF like we do at 3B, it might be different, but you can't just think of his raw production, you have to think about how much MORE it is than who he would replace. And I don't think that's nearly enough to command all of our resources this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:41 PM) Yeah, but that's widely heralded as possibly the worst trade of all-time. It doesn't make sense to use that to set expectations. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:44 PM) On top of the lesson that trade gives us, Vernon Wells had no where near the reputation as mentally weak that Rios has. Also none of Wells worst years prior to his dealing to Anaheim were anywhere near what Rios had in 2011. Ya but theirs a huge difference between the 86 Mill on Verons contract compared to just 25 on Alexs deal. Edited November 12, 2012 by 2nd_city_saint787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) Ya but theirs a huge difference between the 80 Mill on Verons contract compared to just 25 on Alexs deal. Sure, but the fact that a totally insane, senseless, unprecedented deal happened doesn't give us a realistic point of comparison for other deals. I'm not saying Rios couldn't ever fetch a good player, just that the Wells deal has nothing to do with it because was a total outlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 03:51 PM) Ya but theirs a huge difference between the 80 Mill on Verons contract compared to just 25 on Alexs deal. OK, the Sox will trade Floyd, Thornton and Rios, get a decent catcher and someone who can take over at 3b making virtually nothing,and spend the money they just saved signing Josh Hamilton. When do you want to get back to reality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:59 PM) Sure, but the fact that a totally insane, senseless, unprecedented deal happened doesn't give us a realistic point of comparison for other deals. I'm not saying Rios couldn't ever fetch a good player, just that the Wells deal has nothing to do with it because was a total outlier. You're right because when looking at the deals their contracts are not even close...I was wrong, Wells was owed 86 mill, 51 mill more than what Rios is owed. So that reference is pretty extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:02 PM) You're right because when looking at the deals their contracts are not even close...I was wrong, Wells was owed 86 mill, 51 mill more than what Rios is owed. So that reference is pretty extreme. Yeah, that trade was completely unjustifiable. I mean it got Reagins fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:00 PM) OK, the Sox will trade Floyd, Thornton and Rios, get a decent catcher and someone who can take over at 3b making virtually nothing,and spend the money they just saved signing Josh Hamilton. When do you want to get back to reality? I don't see how its that unrealistic at all. Yes I've said a few times that its not gonna happen but not because it can't. 2 execs already said it be "easier to trade Rios for cap relief" so thats not unrealistic Everyone already expects Floyd to be traded, presumably for a 3B. You can trade for one making around 5-7 mill and still be around the salary Hahn put out there. And a lot of people want Thornton traded so I'm not living out of reality right there either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 01:05 PM) Alcohol wasn't his problem though. Yes when we was an addict he drank but the drinking lead to hardcore drugs. If its no longer leading to drugs and he can handle being a normal human being that has a drink once in awhile than more power to him! Alcohol is a huge problem though. It will ALWAYS lead to drugs, and he will ALWAYS be an alcoholic. If he continued to drink, he would continue to push the limits and he WOULD relapse into hard drugs again. Alcoholics don't have one drink and then call it a night...they will go and drink the night away, and then in the name of spontaneity, they will go and do something else for the hell of it, and, knowing Hamilton's history, that would include relapsing into hard drugs, which could ultimately kill him. I don't consider the relapse to be the main issue in signing him, but "only once a year" doesn't justify or excuse his actions. Once a year for Josh Hamilton is one time too many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 05:10 PM) Alcohol is a huge problem though. It will ALWAYS lead to drugs, and he will ALWAYS be an alcoholic. If he continued to drink, he would continue to push the limits and he WOULD relapse into hard drugs again. Alcoholics don't have one drink and then call it a night...they will go and drink the night away, and then in the name of spontaneity, they will go and do something else for the hell of it, and, knowing Hamilton's history, that would include relapsing into hard drugs, which could ultimately kill him. I don't consider the relapse to be the main issue in signing him, but "only once a year" doesn't justify or excuse his actions. Once a year for Josh Hamilton is one time too many. It obviously won't always lead to drugs, if it did he would be out of the league already. I'm sure MLB saw the pictures from the bars and drug tested him shortly after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Why was "crack rocks" not an option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:09 PM) I don't see how its that unrealistic at all. Yes I've said a few times that its not gonna happen but not because it can't. 2 execs already said it be "easier to trade Rios for cap relief" so thats not unrealistic Everyone already expects Floyd to be traded, presumably for a 3B. You can trade for one making around 5-7 mill and still be around the salary Hahn put out there. And a lot of people want Thornton traded so I'm not living out of reality right there either. Salary relief and getting back someone useful are 2 very different things. Not only do you want a serviceable catcher, you also want the answer at 3B. Then paying a guy $25 million a year who is one night away from being worthless. His own quote was he basically plays 4 out of 6 months missing the other 2 because of injury or slumps, but says because he still puts up big numbers, its "cool". Don't let his book blind your judgement. I would also suggest you stay away from Lance Armstrong's biography. I'm not saying Hamilton is anywhere near the phony Armstrong, Hamiliton may be a much better guy, might stay clean for the rest of his life, I hope he does, but he's not worth the risk. Just check out those photos of when he was at the bar messed up. If you think alcohol is not a problem for him, try again. Shirt off, licking whip cream off tits, dry humping women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:10 PM) Alcohol is a huge problem though. It will ALWAYS lead to drugs, and he will ALWAYS be an alcoholic. If he continued to drink, he would continue to push the limits and he WOULD relapse into hard drugs again. Alcoholics don't have one drink and then call it a night...they will go and drink the night away, and then in the name of spontaneity, they will go and do something else for the hell of it, and, knowing Hamilton's history, that would include relapsing into hard drugs, which could ultimately kill him. I don't consider the relapse to be the main issue in signing him, but "only once a year" doesn't justify or excuse his actions. Once a year for Josh Hamilton is one time too many. Relevant: https://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=18883 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 06:38 PM) Salary relief and getting back someone useful are 2 very different things. Not only do you want a serviceable catcher, you also want the answer at 3B. Then paying a guy $25 million a year who is one night away from being worthless. His own quote was he basically plays 4 out of 6 months missing the other 2 because of injury or slumps, but says because he still puts up big numbers, its "cool". Don't let his book blind your judgement. I would also suggest you stay away from Lance Armstrong's biography. I'm not saying Hamilton is anywhere near the phony Armstrong, Hamiliton may be a much better guy, might stay clean for the rest of his life, I hope he does, but he's not worth the risk. Just check out those photos of when he was at the bar messed up. If you think alcohol is not a problem for him, try again. Shirt off, licking whip cream off tits, dry humping women. I said and/or a catcher. Meaning I'm ok with giving Tflow the catching job. Maybe I am letting his book blind my judgement but unless he has people pissin for him he's been clean for 6 years. Most relapses happen within the first 3 months. I don't care if he wants to go out and have a good time as long as it doesn't lead to hardcore drug use or effect him at the plate, which so far it hasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 His couple publicized benders are a really big deal and he himself admits that. Just because it didn't cost him his overall sobriety when it happened, that does not mean he is still at a high risk to lose it every single time he goes out. It's not always a super smooth road to recovery, but you certainly can't pretend that he didn't break sobriety on at least two different nights. It's troubling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 https://mobile.twitter.com/jaysonst/status/...048579694850048 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I'm gonna leave it at I'm rooting for the guy, wherever he goes. It's been a fun little discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 04:09 PM) I don't see how its that unrealistic at all. Yes I've said a few times that its not gonna happen but not because it can't. 2 execs already said it be "easier to trade Rios for cap relief" so thats not unrealistic Everyone already expects Floyd to be traded, presumably for a 3B. You can trade for one making around 5-7 mill and still be around the salary Hahn put out there. And a lot of people want Thornton traded so I'm not living out of reality right there either. For cap relief. Not for real players. There is a big difference there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 08:20 PM) For cap relief. Not for real players. There is a big difference there. I lied in the last post, I'm done addressing his off the field issues though. My views on him are out there. I don't buy Rios as worthless and wouldnt net the Sox SOMETHING. His contract is not that bad. Also wheres the money AJ, Myers, and Youk going? The Sox can take on some salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 12, 2012 -> 08:26 PM) I lied in the last post, I'm done addressing his off the field issues though. My views on him are out there. I don't buy Rios as worthless and wouldnt net the Sox SOMETHING. His contract is not that bad. Also wheres the money AJ, Myers, and Youk going? The Sox can take on some salary. His contract wasn't that bad after 2010 either. Then 2011 happened, and he was immovable. Then 2012 happened and his contract wasn't that bad. I think he's going to be fine this year, but if the Sox can get value for him, they absolutely should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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